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Hij
30th August '08, 12:29 PM
Wenger blast for Chelsea, Liverpool and United: 'Teams in debt should be kicked out Europe'

By Sportsmail Reporter
Last updated at 4:38 PM on 29th August 2008

Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger has welcomed UEFA's investigation into the finances of European football, and called clubs who run at a deficit - including Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester United - to be 'kicked out of Europe'.

New president Michel Platini, the former France playmaker, is concerned at the high level of debt carried by some clubs - maintaining they are 'cheating' by purchasing players they simply cannot afford.

Neither Platini nor Wenger have singled out any individual outfit for concern - although both English teams Manchester United and Chelsea owe something in the region of a combined total of around 1.5billion between them.

However, there is a growing feeling of a need to guard against clubs heading towards financial meltdown, such as the path taken by former Champions League challengers Leeds, who are now in Coca-Cola League One, and some Spanish sides such as financialy-stricken Celta Vigo, who could go into liquidation, while Valencia are also reported to have debts of more than 500m.

'It is very welcome,' said Wenger. 'I think teams who have deficit should be kicked out of Europe.

'The only way to go is that there is a control over all of Europe, and I think it will go that way whether you like it or not.

'UEFA will bring in a control of the management of every individual club and every individual club will be controlled.

'It is very important for the fans of the competition first, and it is very important that every club lives with the resources they have available - clubs should not speculate and then after one year they cannot pay the salaries for the next seasons.

'Every transfer nowadays in Europe is paid over two or three years, and it is compulsory that UEFA controls that the commitment of the club is right, because
if that does not happen, it can all collapse very quickly.'

Gunners boss Wenger, though, accepts certain clubs - namely Chelsea, who are bankrolled by Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich - are currently in a league of their own when it comes to spending power.

'I would prefer transfer fees paid straight away,' he said, 'but when you look at the numbers involved right now, nobody can do that any more.

'Who is a club in Europe who can pay 30million cash? I know one, but only one.'

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/sport/football/article-1050660/Wenger-blast-Chelsea-Liverpool-United-Teams-debt-kicked-Europe.html?ITO=1490

Jammie Dodger
30th August '08, 12:41 PM
I agree with the Boss.

NaiJaBoY
30th August '08, 12:45 PM
It does make sense, if clubs in administration get ducked points


although both English teams Manchester United and Chelsea owe something in the region of a combined total of around 1.5billion between them.

Thats just sad

Like Wenger said its inevitable UEFA will bring in strict controls, imagine if what happened to leeds happened to Manu, that would be a big loss football a whole

So there needs to be control, this clubs are managed recklessly

U cant be living by every pay cheque, the day u miss one pay cheque u are FUCKED!


Manu u pay 65 million in interest every year, thats just INTEREST on top of the debt

what retard runs this club?

Eric Cantona
30th August '08, 01:40 PM
Arsenal would love to see this happen, they might actually win something.

Grimes
30th August '08, 01:49 PM
i kinda agree especially when it isn't the clubs fault why they are in debt

Hij
30th August '08, 02:09 PM
Arsenal would love to see this happen, they might actually win something.:laugh:

Are Arsenal even out of debt yet?

Its a joke really, as if Benitez/Ferguson don't want their clubs to be out of debt, they have no control over their owners, why should that impact competitions, its ridiculous.

6
30th August '08, 02:12 PM
:laugh:

Are Arsenal even out of debt yet?

Its a joke really, as if Benitez/Ferguson don't want their clubs to be out of debt, they have no control over their owners, why should that impact competitions, its ridiculous.

.

Eric Cantona
30th August '08, 02:14 PM
Arsenal are about 300million pound in dept themselves.

Danny Trejo
30th August '08, 07:01 PM
exactly, they're paying off that stadium. stupid cunt.

NaiJaBoY
30th August '08, 07:30 PM
Arsenal are about 300million pound in dept themselves.
dumbass its something called a mortgage

And the stadium pays for itself

Are u old enough to know the difference between DEBT and DEFICIT?

Danny Trejo
30th August '08, 09:23 PM
A mortgage is a debt.

Eric Cantona
30th August '08, 10:08 PM
So what if it's a mortgage, it's stupid saying clubs with dept should get thrown out of Europe when you have a 300m mortgage still.

Pristine Condition
30th August '08, 10:57 PM
Just LOL @ Arsene.

bembzo
30th August '08, 11:04 PM
arsene is tlkin shit i bet he wish he was in debt xD

Hij
31st August '08, 12:05 PM
And the stadium pays for itself


What happens if
A) we go to war with Russia and the stadium is bombed.
B) The credit crunch continues to worsen and some fans decide against going to the football to save the money.

Until its ACTUALLY PAID for itself, you can't say that, anything could happen and as it stands, its not paid for itself yet.

Anonymous
31st August '08, 12:43 PM
Credit crunch is air

'nuum general
31st August '08, 05:47 PM
good idea but it won't happen as ther bid teams are too important to uefa

The Messiah
31st August '08, 06:39 PM
Wow I'm amazed you guys didn't clock:


Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger has welcomed UEFA's investigation into the finances of European football, and called clubs who run at a deficit - including Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester United - to be 'kicked out of Europe'.

UEFA is talking about deficit not debt. Of course Arsenal are in debt but they do not run at a defict, which is yearly. At the end of the year when all the balances are done, the numbers at the bottom of Arsenal's spreadsheets are black. Whilst at certain clubs they are red. Debt is the collective sum of all previous deficits.

So obviously with the new stadium, in the early part of the millennium we took out a loan to pay for it (becuase obviously Arsenal couldn't afford to and the deficit from building the stadium needed to be filled). We owe money to the lenders, and that is where the debt comes from. But becuase we don't run with a yearly deficit, we will eventually pay it off with the money we gain at the end of each year.

If you are in debt and are running at a deficit, unless you get some huge cash injection, you will never pay the debt off. That is the clear and simple difference, and those are clubs that UEFA are targeting.

Now that's sorted...


Arsenal would love to see this happen, they might actually win something.

Your purposely avoiding the point. You know your team is in a shitload of debt and they don't care about it. Instead of paying off part of the interest on your debt, you spent that money on buying Owen Hargreaves, thus putting you in deficit yet again...

I've previously said that even though Arsenal aren't winning anything now, I'd much rather be an Arsenal fan in 15 years time than a United fan. United will never collapse in the way Leeds did (It would take something massive for that to ahppen as things currently stand), but failure to qualify for Champions League one season would be a disgustingly massive financial blow to United whilst Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool could cope if they didn't.


Its a joke really, as if Benitez/Ferguson don't want their clubs to be out of debt, they have no control over their owners, why should that impact competitions, its ridiculous.

Hang on, when you run a football club, where does most of the money go? Isn't transfer fees and wages? Who has the major say in that? If Fergie or Benitez wanted to do their bit to help, they could..


Arsenal are about 300million pound in dept themselves.

Which was planned and expected and will be paid off without any issue. Won't bother reapeating what I said above. However despite our debt I'd like to point out in how good shape were are in debt and how good shape we will be without it when it's gone:


Edelman said that at Highbury the club earned 44m a year with no debt - but at Emirates that figure rises to 80m. Once debt repayment is covered, he said, Arsenal are still "20m a year better off" with their future not dependent on qualifying for the Champions' League. The club have calculated they can finish 10th or 11th in the Premiership - or even get relegated - and still remain "robust".


So what if it's a mortgage, it's stupid saying clubs with dept should get thrown out of Europe when you have a 300m mortgage still.

Given all I've said above, this point is redundant. At the end of the day Arsenal are the only top 4 club that can say they will be debt free in the forseeable fututre. All this debt came about fromt the stadium anyway as the club was run extremely well prior to that (unlike some other clubs), putting us in the postion to take us up a level. Funny that it's the only top 4 club with an English board...

Anonymous
31st August '08, 08:15 PM
Wow I'm amazed you guys didn't clock:



UEFA is talking about deficit not debt. Of course Arsenal are in debt but they do not run at a defict, which is yearly. At the end of the year when all the balances are done, the numbers at the bottom of Arsenal's spreadsheets are black. Whilst at certain clubs they are red. Debt is the collective sum of all previous deficits.

So obviously with the new stadium, in the early part of the millennium we took out a loan to pay for it (becuase obviously Arsenal couldn't afford to and the deficit from building the stadium needed to be filled). We owe money to the lenders, and that is where the debt comes from. But becuase we don't run with a yearly deficit, we will eventually pay it off with the money we gain at the end of each year.

If you are in debt and are running at a deficit, unless you get some huge cash injection, you will never pay the debt off. That is the clear and simple difference, and those are clubs that UEFA are targeting.

Now that's sorted...



Your purposely avoiding the point. You know your team is in a shitload of debt and they don't care about it. Instead of paying off part of the interest on your debt, you spent that money on buying Owen Hargreaves, thus putting you in deficit yet again...

I've previously said that even though Arsenal aren't winning anything now, I'd much rather be an Arsenal fan in 15 years time than a United fan. United will never collapse in the way Leeds did (It would take something massive for that to ahppen as things currently stand), but failure to qualify for Champions League one season would be a disgustingly massive financial blow to United whilst Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool could cope if they didn't.



Hang on, when you run a football club, where does most of the money go? Isn't transfer fees and wages? Who has the major say in that? If Fergie or Benitez wanted to do their bit to help, they could..



Which was planned and expected and will be paid off without any issue. Won't bother reapeating what I said above. However despite our debt I'd like to point out in how good shape were are in debt and how good shape we will be without:





Given all I've said above, this point is redundant. At the end of the day Arsenal are the only top 4 club that can say they will be debt free in the forseeable fututre. All this debt came about fromt the stadium anyway as the club was run extremely well prior to that (unlike some other clubs), putting us in the postion to take us up a level. Funny that it's the only top 4 club with an English board...

Excellent explanations and points as always.

The Messiah
1st September '08, 07:27 PM
Excellent explanations and points as always.

Thanks. I'm actually surprised I deaded the thread. I thought that at least Alex would try and come back with some inane comment...

Eric Cantona
1st September '08, 07:29 PM
Im still thinking about it

Xtra P
1st September '08, 07:30 PM
Thanks. I'm actually surprised I deaded the thread. I thought that at least Alex would try and come back with some inane comment...

Im not, people gave emotional responses to this thread becasue of their dislike for Wenger instead of actually thinking about what he was saying, it makes perfect sense.

The Messiah
1st September '08, 07:34 PM
Im still thinking about it

I'll check the thread in a few days then...

Eric Cantona
1st September '08, 07:36 PM
Yeh, do that.

NaiJaBoY
1st September '08, 08:26 PM
lool @ PPL not knowing the difference between Debt and Deficit

Ryddel
1st September '08, 11:14 PM
Pretty sure Arsenal are in debt despite the 30m kitty hence some quote by Wenger claiming he would have to sell before he could buy, was in paper around start of August i think?

Pristine Condition
2nd September '08, 12:07 AM
Wag1 for the Arsenal signing

Wenger = Prat!!!!

The Messiah
3rd September '08, 08:36 PM
Pretty sure Arsenal are in debt despite the 30m kitty hence some quote by Wenger claiming he would have to sell before he could buy, was in paper around start of August i think?

No one said Arsenal weren't in debt. They aren't in deficit though.

The Messiah
8th October '08, 02:31 PM
The idea is picking up pace: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7659077.stm

I swear that United and Chelsea have more than 1bn debt between those two alone? I think someone is taking shots at Liverpool for no reason.

Eric Cantona
8th October '08, 04:09 PM
Think about, they would be able to say 'Your're in dept, even though you just won the Premier League you can't enter' It's bullshit and will never happen.

They should reduce the amount of CL spots in the Premier League, then we'll see if Liverpool & Arsenal are happy with 4th spot come end of the season

Hij
8th October '08, 04:51 PM
Think about, they would be able to say 'Your're in dept, even though you just won the Premier League you can't enter' It's bullshit and will never happen.

Its doubly ridiculous if it effects the fans as well. What happens if Liverpool win the Champions League this year, yet aren't allowed to enter it the next year? The players, the manager and the fans didn't cause any debt on the club (ok yes, Rafa may have spent the transfer budget, but he didn't take a loan out against the club, in order to buy it ffs) But the incompetant Chief Executive and Owners did put debt on the club? Why should we suffer more because of that?

Besides the fact that no European Competition would only further burden these clubs that are in debt.

Why don't these guys instill proper screening tests for fit and suitable owners at football clubs, introduce rules and caps for wages, transfers and make sure there are proper rules as to how clubs are run and at what percentage of their value they are allowed to be in debt at rather than look to penalise the club and the fans for senior problems, fuck ups and mistakes.

The fact that Mike Ashley, Thaksin Shinawatra + The American Twosome were allowed anywhere near their clubs proves that the fit and proper test is fucking abysmal when we are talking about a billion pound industry, funded from the bottom up, by the average working male.

TRU_G
8th October '08, 05:42 PM
@ The Messiah you make good ponts but does that still make it right

IMO Football is a sport and is about the game of football

With characters like Abramovich and the guy who bought Man City, the sport is slowly turning into being centered around business and money. If this was to happen this would make the game revolve around money even more so.

Fuck that

You play well enough you get into big competitions, it should be abou the game and the skill of the team that determines this, not their financial status

Hij
8th October '08, 05:52 PM
@ The Messiah you make good ponts but does that still make it right

IMO Football is a sport and is about the game of football

With characters like Abramovich and the guy who bought Man City, the sport is slowly turning into being centered around business and money. If this was to happen this would make the game revolve around money even more so.

Fuck that

You play well enough you get into big competitions, it should be abou the game and the skill of the team that determines this, not their financial status

The point you make about sport and competition is correct.

If Liverpool were kicked out of Europe for their debt problems, when we are crying out for someone to help us get RID of the owners who PUT the debt there in the first place, It'd be a massive slap in the face and I'd probably sack off football for a few years- go down Ashburton Grove with the lads and never really get that 'feeling' again.

'nuum general
8th October '08, 06:23 PM
yer ban them all, that should guarentee us a champions league spot next season

The Messiah
8th October '08, 10:17 PM
Think about, they would be able to say 'Your're in dept, even though you just won the Premier League you can't enter' It's bullshit and will never happen.

They should reduce the amount of CL spots in the Premier League, then we'll see if Liverpool & Arsenal are happy with 4th spot come end of the season

First and foremost learn how to spell debt.

Secondly, it's running in deficit year on year that they are interested in, not overall debt. I can easily see a system where a club isn't allowed to run in deficit for 4 years in a row. All a (half-decently run) club would need to do is have one season where they count the pennies for one season every 4 years and they'd be fine. They'd go back into deficit for the next 3 and start again.

Hij
8th October '08, 10:33 PM
First and foremost learn how to spell debt.

Secondly, it's running in deficit year on year that they are interested in, not overall debt. I can easily see a system where a club isn't allowed to run in deficit for 4 years in a row. All a (half-decently run) club would need to do is have one season where they count the pennies for one season every 4 years and they'd be fine. They'd go back into deficit for the next 3 and start again.

Kick Chelsea, United and Liverpool out of Europe, you'd be a shoe in to win the competition.

Wouldn't that feel hollow?

Eric Cantona
9th October '08, 12:43 AM
Messiah learn how to get your tounge out of Wenger's cheaks

The Messiah
9th October '08, 11:30 AM
Kick Chelsea, United and Liverpool out of Europe, you'd be a shoe in to win the competition.

Wouldn't that feel hollow?

Liverpool and United under the rules I suggested would always qualify for the Champions League. Chelsea's debt is internal so I think they'd be able to loophole any rule UEFA made anyway. United could avoid running at a deficit if they wanted to, they just choose not to - the year they bought Hargreaves being a prime example. Liverpool's debt isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be, it's comparable to Arsenal's debt. The only difference is our debt is with the new stadium and that Liverpool yet to build a new stadium, and that would pretty much double their current level of debt. However I don't know enough about Liverpool's yearly profit/deficit to make any further informed judgements.


Messiah learn how to get your tounge out of Wenger's cheaks

At the end of the day, clubs getting out of debt is for their own benefit. Not for anyone else. It's actually in Arsenal's (and Liverpool's) best interest that United's debts keep getting bigger because when the shit hits the fan, United will be most of the spray i.e when the Arab, Asian and American money stops coming in from TV revenue, we'll see what happens. Take note from current credit crisis - when the money stopped flowing, there were sales of big banks like Merrill Lynch, Lehman Brothers and Halifax who were thought to be leaders in their respective spheres of influence. The smaller, well run banks are the ones successfully riding the waves at the moment.

'nuum general
9th October '08, 12:40 PM
we have no debt, hence were third in the table :agree:

Jay05
9th October '08, 02:11 PM
Man Utd do make a profit every year

i wud prefer a % of turnover to be used for wages

this stops accounting tricks being used to make a profit.

Xtra P
9th October '08, 02:54 PM
we have no debt, hence were third in the table :agree:

Enjoy it while it lasts! :evilgrin:

The Messiah
9th October '08, 04:31 PM
Man Utd do make a profit every year

i wud prefer a % of turnover to be used for wages

this stops accounting tricks being used to make a profit.

Ha!

United's profits make for interesting reading but they also leave a very large unanswered question - The issue of interest payments on the debt that the Glazer family has assigned to the club.

Back in 2006 the Glazer family secured a refinancing deal that saw the interest payments dropped by about 40 million a year. However at the same time, the overall borrowings of the club increased by 100 million. So how come borrowings went up so dramatically?

Because United are privately owned, their statements are not all public like Arsenal's but some speculator said this:


Without detailed financial statements it is impossible to say what exactly was done so I freely admit to a bit of speculation. Could it be because the Glazer family opted to capitalize the interest payments incurred during the first year of operations? (It is the equivalent of opting to not pay interest on your mortgage but rather adding it to your principal - so you pay interest on interest).

In layman's terms: United debts are still growing because they are choosing to delay the payment of the interest on their debts and happily avoid paying off optional debts to fund transfers.

Another interesting read is here: http://soccerlens.com/manchester-uniteds-debt-analysed/7356/

Xtra P
9th October '08, 04:45 PM
lol Manure will go the way of northen rock soon enough & when they do ill be

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/clusion7721/5cy5oj.gif

Eric Cantona
9th October '08, 04:51 PM
lol Manure will go the way of northen rock soon enough & when they do ill be

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/clusion7721/5cy5oj.gif

I wouldn't mind if the government bought us still, Real Madrid stylie lol

The Messiah
9th October '08, 05:10 PM
lol Manure will go the way of northen rock soon enough & when they do ill be

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/clusion7721/5cy5oj.gif

Oh I'll be next to you doing the same.

If they don't fix up their finances in the next 5 years they'll more exposed to the elements, than a cactus in a desert. You can't rely on reaching CL group stages and TV revenue forever...

Grimes
9th October '08, 05:22 PM
wage cap. needs to be done

Hij
9th October '08, 05:25 PM
TBH

I laughed when the Glazers bought United and used Old Trafford as the (forgot the word just now), security/deposit or whatever.

How that is possible I dont know.

Its like me saying, Im gonna by Alton Towers, and borrow the money against the theme park.

Jay05
9th October '08, 06:18 PM
The owners of united r the ones who r pulling the money out of united

The football side makes a profit each year

Hij
9th October '08, 09:04 PM
The owners of united r the ones who r pulling the money out of united

The football side makes a profit each year
Why are they in debt then.

Jackyzuckerberg
9th October '08, 09:21 PM
West Ham are fucked. Apparently that Icelandic bloke is deadout now that bank has lost all its money.

Tony Starks
9th October '08, 10:36 PM
Feel sorry 4 west ham theyve had a bad time in recent years...den i fink of logan and how smug and cocky he gets wen dey win and i feel better!

Eric Cantona
9th October '08, 11:40 PM
In the near future if Man Utd were about to get into serious trouble there will always be an little chinese man to bail us out, and you all know it

The Messiah
10th October '08, 12:29 PM
In the near future if Man Utd were about to get into serious trouble there will always be an little chinese man to bail us out, and you all know it

Debt is debt. It would just mean that you owe the Chinese guy instead.

Xtra P
10th October '08, 12:31 PM
lol