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Jay
23rd March '12, 11:15 AM
Was just reading through teamtalk and saw someone point out that there have been a number of high scoring games in the premiership this season, and that this isn't down to teams getting better, but to teams becoming worse.

Gotta say I agree with them, the teams at the bottom of the league have got worse, Wigan play nice football but can't hit a barn door, Wolves I don't really need to say much after recent results. Teams sitting in the middle of the table, like my own, don't seem to have improved or got any worse so I would say the level at mid-premiership is pretty much the same as it has always been. Then you have the top teams who aren't quite at the levels they were of a few years ago.

Noone seemed to want to mention though that have our top teams really dropped down that much or is it just that the rest of Europe has improved whilst our top teams have stood still?

LeBcfc
23rd March '12, 11:53 AM
Still the best league in the world

Pirate
23rd March '12, 12:15 PM
Certain teams have improved madly, but the rest have gotten worse.

Man Utd now compared to five years ago have got worse
Liverpool worse
City a shit load better (money obviously though)
Arsenal worse
Chelsea a lot worse
Newcastle massively improved
Everton probably worse
Spurs better

add into that the fact that other leagues are now managing to keep hold of their superstars

quality
23rd March '12, 12:24 PM
England has never really had 'superstar' players, bar Ronaldo. English clubs have certainly never signed a 'superstar' player at their peak in the same way the Reals, Barcas, Milans of this world have.

If you believe the Sky Sports gas about it being the best league in the world, oh well. It's a product - Sky are selling their product.

For instance:


What about in internationals? What if Scotland were playing? Well that's different. In the international arena, I think I'd be very entitled to be pro-Scottish. If it's a British side in Europe, it's the same. I want Arsenal to beat Barcelona, I want Manchester United to beat Bayern Munich, I want Chelsea to beat Inter.

But that's the classic case of the deluded commentator thinking everyone in the UK wants British sides to do well, which is nonsense. Is it? Why shouldn't we?

Because we hate them? Manchester City fans don't want to see United do well. Tottenham fans want to see Arsenal get crushed by Barcelona ... Well, I don't have feelings about those sides. I neither like nor dislike them. What I need to show the world is that the Premier League is the best league in the world, with the best players in the world and the best teams in the world. That's my job – to promote our league the best way I can.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/apr/30/small-talk-andy-gray

From an Andy Gray interview.

Some of the standard of the Premiership is embarrassing, teams just don't have the fundamentals. Is there anyone who can sit and watches Stoke play and can tell me its the most entertaining league in the world with a straight face... Obviously its my favourite league, but I'm English - Spanish people will prefer their league etc.

wud
23rd March '12, 12:35 PM
Its my favourite league but its not the best. As much as I hate the Spanish league hype, after Bilbao made Man Utd look like a sunday league team I'm starting to think it might be the best. But it's all dependent on what you consider the "best", certain leagues have the best technical ability, certain leagues have the best passing etc etc.

Scrappy123
23rd March '12, 12:40 PM
The defending has got alot worse, hence the high scoring games and the fact all Englih teams are struggling in Europe.

Nigel
23rd March '12, 12:41 PM
England has had superstar players?!

Rooney
Beckham
Owen
Ronaldo
Torres
Gerrard
Lampard
van Nistelrooy
Van Persie
Henry
Bergkamp


I reckon that teams are becoming more focused on the league than European fixtures, so limiting the sizes of their squads, not having the depth that previously was had and struggling because of this.

Mr. Jefferies
23rd March '12, 12:49 PM
England has had superstar players?!

Rooney
Beckham
Owen
Ronaldo
Torres
Gerrard
Lampard
van Nistelrooy
Van Persie
Henry
Bergkamp


I reckon that teams are becoming more focused on the league than European fixtures, so limiting the sizes of their squads, not having the depth that previously was had and struggling because of this.

What he's saying is English teams don't go out and buy players that are at the top of their game and he's right.

Bar the likes of Shevchenko and Veron, it doesn't really happen.

Nigel
23rd March '12, 12:54 PM
What he's saying is English teams don't go out and buy players that are at the top of their game and he's right.

Bar the likes of Shevchenko and Veron, it doesn't really happen.

Judging them two it wont never happen again loooooooooooool.

Tbh alot of S. American Superstars aint suited to the Prems way of footie so thats gotta be part of the reason they go to spain and italy more than England imo.

Mr. Jefferies
23rd March '12, 12:58 PM
I do still think La Liga generally has the better players, more superstars.

Ronaldo (Brazilian)
Zidane
Messi
Ronaldinho
Figo
Xavi
Iniesta
Roberto Carlos
Rivaldo

Are all a tier up from the players listed with the exception of maybe Thierry Henry.

datnigganev
23rd March '12, 01:30 PM
I do still think La Liga generally has the better players, more superstars.

Ronaldo (Brazilian)
Zidane
Messi
Ronaldinho
Figo
Xavi
Iniesta
Roberto Carlos
Rivaldo

Are all a tier up from the players listed with the exception of maybe Thierry Henry.

Serie A used to have:

Ronaldo
Nedved
Veron
Batistuta
Maldini
R.Carlos
Buffon
Zidane

etc.

Even now they have some heavy hitters. If you take Messi and Ronaldo out of La Liga then you could question like catchacat said whether people are getting carried away with La Liga? when Ronaldo, Cesc, Alonso were in the prem nobody was bothered but now their in la liga people lose their heads.

Mr. Jefferies
23rd March '12, 01:31 PM
When Ronaldo, Cesc and Alonso were all in the Prem (07-09), it was the best league at that time.

iKlozzle
23rd March '12, 01:36 PM
Real Madrid and Barca are head and shoulders above every team in Europe right now with Bayern Munich probably being third in all honesty.

Plus the way Bilbao destroyed United, kinda backs up the fact Spain is dominant league right now. Them times when 3/4 of CL semi finalists were English >>>

datnigganev
23rd March '12, 01:41 PM
When Ronaldo, Cesc and Alonso were all in the Prem (07-09), it was the best league at that time.

fair enough. Most people are on a la liga hype for me although I agree it does have the better player but not by as much as people make out.

Another interesting topic would be the main leagues strongest 11s and bench and it might make people realise that theres big boy players in all the leagues.

datnigganev
23rd March '12, 02:34 PM
Real Madrid and Barca are head and shoulders above every team in Europe right now with Bayern Munich probably being third in all honesty.

Plus the way Bilbao destroyed United, kinda backs up the fact Spain is dominant league right now. Them times when 3/4 of CL semi finalists were English >>>

Not really.

isolated event. Stoke matching and nearly beating Valencia could be used as a counter argument tbh.

EA
23rd March '12, 02:44 PM
I don't know why people say the Spanish league is shit. It's not competitive, big difference. I'd happily take the 8th and 9th place teams in La Liga (Athletico Madrid & Bilbao) over ours (Swansea & Sunderland).

datnigganev
23rd March '12, 03:00 PM
I don't know why people say the Spanish league is shit. It's not competitive, big difference. I'd happily take the 8th and 9th place teams in La Liga (Athletico Madrid & Bilbao) over ours (Swansea & Sunderland).

what about 3,4,5, and 6 and 14,15,16?????

El Asesino
23rd March '12, 03:07 PM
'the best league in the world'

is a myth

we'll never know.


I'd agree that the quality of the top teams in England has decreased though. The press in this country get world class managers sacked consistantly, that imo, is a big problem in the EPL.

NeverDatGuy
23rd March '12, 03:09 PM
EA makes a great point, if we want to compare the leagues we should start by matching up the teams in respective league standings.

United - Madrid
City - Barca
Arsenal - Valencia
Spurs - Levante
Chelsea - Malaga
Newcastle - Espanyol
Liverpool - Osasuna
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Swansea - Atletico Madrid
Sunderland - Bilbao
Everton - Rayo
Stoke - Seville
Fulham - Mallorca
West Brom - Getafe
Norwich - Real Sociedad
Villa - Granada
Blackburn - Real Betis
QPR - Villarreal
Bolton - Sporting Gijon
Wigan - Racing Santander
Wolves - Zaragoza

Now from those match ups I would say that the Spanish teams would win around 12 of those and the English teams around 8. Obviously that's not how it works as you have to consider everyone playing everyone but it's a good thing to consider.

EA
23rd March '12, 03:09 PM
what about 3,4,5, and 6 and 14,15,16?????

My breakdown of how the EPL & La Liga matches up.

1-7: EPL > LL
8-16: LL > EPL
16-20: EPL = LL

quality
23rd March '12, 03:21 PM
My breakdown of how the EPL & La Liga matches up.

1-7: EPL > LL
8-16: LL > EPL
16-20: EPL = LL

It should be 1-2: LL >, then 3-7... You can't ignore Real-Barca's dominance.

EA
23rd March '12, 03:26 PM
It should be 1-2: LL >, then 3-7... You can't ignore Real-Barca's dominance.

Yeah that's true. I was being brief but I realise that it does a disservice to Real & Barca.

quality
23rd March '12, 03:32 PM
People can talk about La Liga being like the SPL, but Real and Barca are two of the best club sides I can remember. They'd dominate any league realistically.

Jack 1017
23rd March '12, 04:16 PM
Depends what you mean by "best"

EPL = The most entertaining league, I can confirm bros

Big 45
23rd March '12, 05:36 PM
Depends what you mean by "best"

EPL = The most entertaining league, I can confirm bros

.

lol when people say the premiership is the best league they don't just mean it has the best teams that can beat anyone else in europe.....

It's because there is less diving, cheating (although players like suarez try it on), there is little difference between the top 4 teams in terms of player quality, it all comes down to tactics, not bottling etc whether a teams dominates. And on a good day a bottom side team can beat a team at the top. There's ups and downs throughout the season and upsets happen weekly.

Yeah this can apply to any league in the world, but I think more so in the premiership imo.

For me La Liga has become better quality because the rest of the league have had to adopt to playing like Barcelona, their players have more stamina and can run around longer than our players. I think thats why Barcelona are looking less dominant in terms of their league position. It's like ping pong football, 1 side attacks then the other attacks straightaway and its back and fourth for 90mins. Thats why Man United were overwhelmed really with the energy of the bilbao players who would pressure and get the ball back asap after losing it......alot of movement and running off the ball etc. Also for bilbao it was literally like a final for them playing united, they had more hunger and it showed. It's like when Cardiff dominated Liverpool in the CC final.

Clive Eboue
23rd March '12, 05:58 PM
Depends what you mean by "best"

EPL = The most entertaining league, I can confirm bros

c/s

Watching Real and Barca maul teams week in week out <<<<<<>>>>>>

Julio Cesar
23rd March '12, 06:20 PM
Technically La Liga is better. I find the premiership more exciting and better to watch.

MoneyMan
23rd March '12, 06:36 PM
I think defending has got worse world or Europe-wide, which is why we're seeing mad scores in the Prem and Barca demolising teams 7-0 in La Liga and CL.

I still think the prem is the best league because it is the most exciting, fair enough it's a 2 horse race for the title now but many other countries are only ever gonna be 2, Spain, Scotland, Germany, Italy most of the time. At the start of the season at least City, Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal realistically felt they could win the league, Spurs and Liverpool maybe also.

Obviously sky are promoting and over-exaggerating the prem, and i'm not naive enough to buy into all their hype, but ask yourself: would they have invested BILLIONS in it and continue to do so, if it wasn't a very good product in the 1st place?

Imo it's not a contradiction to say that the best team and best player in the world are in Spain, but the best league is England.

MoneyMan
23rd March '12, 06:47 PM
EA makes a great point, if we want to compare the leagues we should start by matching up the teams in respective league standings.

United - Madrid
City - Barca
Arsenal - Valencia
Spurs - Levante
Chelsea - Malaga
Newcastle - Espanyol
Liverpool - Osasuna
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Swansea - Atletico Madrid
Sunderland - Bilbao
Everton - Rayo
Stoke - Seville
Fulham - Mallorca
West Brom - Getafe
Norwich - Real Sociedad
Villa - Granada
Blackburn - Real Betis
QPR - Villarreal
Bolton - Sporting Gijon
Wigan - Racing Santander
Wolves - Zaragoza

Now from those match ups I would say that the Spanish teams would win around 12 of those and the English teams around 8. Obviously that's not how it works as you have to consider everyone playing everyone but it's a good thing to consider.

I bolded the ones I think would beat their respective English team on their day, only 6 for me. Take away Barca and Real and La Liga is way, way, way below the Prem in terms of quality. Bilbao destroying United is irrelevant, since then they've not won a game and have played shit domestically, playing teams both above and below them, so i'm not accept that as proof of La Liga's dominance.
English teams have ran the show in Europe for the last decade, now because of one poor season everyone is switching bandwagons, I actually think the prem is better now than when Liverpool, United, Chelsea etc were casually getting to at least the semis of CL every single year.

Obviously Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea have got worse. Man U have a worse squad but are still top atm so you can't say they're exactly terrible. City and Spurs have got much better.
2 of the 3 promoted teams have really brought something to the division, especially Swansea, rather than just being there to make up the numbers and go straight back down again, like West Brom, Reading, Birmingham etc have done over the years.

What El Asesino said about the prem/the media in this country getting good managers sacked is right, but it happens elsewhere too. Real Madrid are probably the world's worst proponents of that, you could win the treble there and still get kicked out a job.

FoundTheGif
23rd March '12, 07:29 PM
The defending has been terrible this season r/s. I honestly think this may be the only reason this suggestion has come up. the Bilbao-United game imo is a slightly weak argument. Teams in a transitional period (especially within defence) will always do shit.

Zoffie
23rd March '12, 10:36 PM
When people say the English League is the best because it's the most exciting. It depends what you like doesn't it.
The English Premier League is the most watched so it's doing something right, whether that be on the field or marketing.

Someone mentioned that Shevchenko was signed at the top of his game 0_o I called it. Didn't want him here, I used to watch tonnes of International football Milan were my club in Italy. Shevchenko was already gone.

Also that argument holds no weight to me. When you talk about Luis Ronaldo, Barca signed him from the Dutch league s a young player, just like Chelsea for instance signed Robben at basically the same age. Both top talents. Aguero just went to City this season. Torres went to Liverpool.

Hazard is well sought after now & has targeted the Premier League. South American talent had usually evaded the Premier League but, that's changing.

In terms of the defending being shit, that's just down to Barcelona. The English teams have tried to move away from what they were doing & play more free flowing, now every defence wants a centreback who can play ball, the ball is not always hoofed out.

In terms of the technical level of players coming through, as you all know I follow youth football. England are good.
A lot of teams now have a young English talent or talents that you can look too. It doesn't matter that they aren't playing yet, it doesn't mean they're not super. More & more I watch games with talent from all over the world & the best player on the pitch technically is the English player.

The dread Ronaldinho guy at the beginning of this video, Daniel Johnson looked better than Pogba in the reserve clash they just had.
Everton have Barkley, Villa DJ, Chelsea Swift, United Barmby. They keep on coming, not every country have technically sound players coming through.
Look at Holland, I think they need a batch to emerge.
qj9p7lJtxdc

Shower Posse
23rd March '12, 10:47 PM
Real Madrid and Barca are head and shoulders above every team in Europe right now with Bayern Munich probably being third in all honesty.

Plus the way Bilbao destroyed United, kinda backs up the fact Spain is dominant league right now. Them times when 3/4 of CL semi finalists were English >>>

Munich aint even first in their league

Hij
23rd March '12, 10:56 PM
England being much better than La Liga is a myth. It's an interesting thread and is a hypothesis I put forward earlier on in the season, though not to claim any credit it wasn't said with any certainty more of an eyebrow raise and a pondering. English football peaked from about 2004-2009 and is on a decline compared to other nations.

iKlozzle
23rd March '12, 11:05 PM
Munich aint even first in their league

I know...

Who do you consider above Bayern Munich in Europe right now? AC Milan are good but not quite up there... Inter are a joke and none of the English teams I can see beating Bayern right now.

Hij

Am I missing an in-joke here or summet? Scholes avi?

Shower Posse
23rd March '12, 11:19 PM
Bro we raped Bayern when they came to Old Trafford until Rafael got sent off

Man U can beat them
City can beat them
Arsenal with Wilshire can, without no

and I reckon Juventus will give them a run for their money

Their defence is nothing special bar Lahm and Neur

iKlozzle
23rd March '12, 11:32 PM
Bro we raped Bayern when they came to Old Trafford until Rafael got sent off

Man U can beat them
City can beat them
Arsenal with Wilshire can, without no

and I reckon Juventus will give them a run for their money

Their defence is nothing special bar Lahm and Neur

That was 2 years ago when we went out to Bayern... And Bayern took apart Man City this season in the group stages. I agree with you about their defence tho.

Juventus? They didn't even qualify for this seasons CL?

Shower Posse
24th March '12, 12:03 AM
2010 Team
VDS
Rafael Vidic Ferdinand Evra
valencia Fletcher Carrick(when he played like djemba djemba)
Gibson
Rooney

Current team: De gea;Jones;Vidic;Ferdinand;Evra;Valencia;Carrick;Sc holes/Cleverley;Nani,Rooney;Welbeck

Thats a strong team

MoneyMan
24th March '12, 12:15 AM
Everyone will be back on the Prem's nuts when English teams go HAM in Europe again.
This season has been one awkard flop but once LFC get back to show you dons how to do it on the continent, it will be all good again.

Napoli beat City but City are still a better team.
With a fully fit team and on-form Rooney, Giggs and Nani, Man U can duppy anyone including Bilbao.

I'm still saying the only teams head and shoulders above England (and everyone else) in Europe are Real and Barca.

datnigganev
24th March '12, 11:49 AM
MoneyMan agree team for team PL is stronger than la liga

LeBcfc
24th March '12, 12:17 PM
It's not even about the top sides look how entertaining the relegation fight last game of last season was most drama in one day of football I've seen

U don't get that with la liga two horse race then the rest r average
I agree barca and Madrid are better then any of our teams but I feel our league is more etertainin

Julio Cesar
24th March '12, 12:41 PM
U don't get that with la liga two horse race then the rest r average

No they aren't :laugh:

Ask Man Utd fans if they think Bilbao are average, and they were 7th when they played them iirc

FoundTheGif
24th March '12, 12:49 PM
Please don't base your opinion on the United-Bilbao match lol. Chelsea beat Valencia 3-1 iirc, Aren't Valencia 4th? Stoke survived Valencia (Lost 1-0 at home not sure about the away leg).

I've already said why the Bilbao - United game was/is a pretty weak argument.

Julio Cesar
24th March '12, 01:13 PM
Please don't base your opinion on the United-Bilbao match lol. Chelsea beat Valencia 3-1 iirc, Aren't Valencia 4th? Stoke survived Valencia (Lost 1-0 at home not sure about the away leg).

I've already said why the Bilbao - United game was/is a pretty weak argument.
How is it a weak argument? It's the perfect example. 7th team in La Liga beat the top team in England at one of the hardest grounds to go to in the world. Valencia beat Stoke well (was 2-0 on aggregate iirc). Chelsea beat Valencia (they are 3rd), but then again I'd fancy Valencia to beat anybody outside the top 4. Athletico Madrid are 8th and are a very good side, Sevilla are a good side and are 10th, Malaga are also a very good side. The whole 'La Liga is a two team league' is complete bull, those top 2 would be the top 2 in every league in the world. La Liga have some very good sides outside of the top 2, and you only have to look at their squads to see that and watch a few matches and you will see that. Their football philosophy is also a lot better over there.

FoundTheGif
24th March '12, 01:36 PM
How is it a weak argument? It's the perfect example. 7th team in La Liga beat the top team in England at one of the hardest grounds to go to in the world. Valencia beat Stoke well (was 2-0 on aggregate iirc). Chelsea beat Valencia (they are 3rd), but then again I'd fancy Valencia to beat anybody outside the top 4.

It's a weak argument because I've already mentioned the Chelsea Valencia game. At the time of that game Chelsea were what? 4th? Chelsea weren't doing that great and they beat the 3rd placed team in La Liga 3-1. I don't know what the starting XI but I'm pretty sure it was a fully fit Chelsea side. Stoke are 11th right now and lost 1-0 over both legs to Valencia.

A fully fit United side would've not lost to Bilbao.

Athletico Madrid are 8th and are a very good side, Sevilla are a good side and are 10th, Malaga are also a very good side. The whole 'La Liga is a two team league' is complete bull, those top 2 would be the top 2 in every league in the world. La Liga have some very good sides outside of the top 2, and you only have to look at their squads to see that and watch a few matches and you will see that. Their football philosophy is also a lot better over there.
I don't really care about this bit sorry.

datnigganev
24th March '12, 02:04 PM
How is it a weak argument? It's the perfect example. 7th team in La Liga beat the top team in England at one of the hardest grounds to go to in the world. Valencia beat Stoke well (was 2-0 on aggregate iirc). Chelsea beat Valencia (they are 3rd), but then again I'd fancy Valencia to beat anybody outside the top 4. Athletico Madrid are 8th and are a very good side, Sevilla are a good side and are 10th, Malaga are also a very good side. The whole 'La Liga is a two team league' is complete bull, those top 2 would be the top 2 in every league in the world. La Liga have some very good sides outside of the top 2, and you only have to look at their squads to see that and watch a few matches and you will see that. Their football philosophy is also a lot better over there.

Chelsea are in 5th place bro :laugh::laugh::laugh:. Bilbao have been shit outside of the cup competitions and I agree a full strength Man U would have raped them both legs. Take 5 or 6 top players out of Barca's team and Liverpool would give them a game FACT. Outside of the top 2 in la liga the rest of the teams are very poor with a sprinkling of top class player in their team.

Eagz
24th March '12, 03:35 PM
What says it all is that Chelsea are the only English team left in Europe.

Chelsea this season <<<<

And that's as a chelsea fan.

I think La Liga is so much stronger than the premiership. Even though it's often just a 2 horse race thats as Real and Barca are so strong; they'd walk the prem as well. You've got teams like Bilbao and Atletico Madrid filling out the mid table in Spain, so theoretically they should be the same level as Swansea/Sunderland/Everton etc... I know who I'd rather play!

I think the Prem is still a good league, but only on a par with Serie A (albeit more entertaining) and La Liga is head and shoulders above those.

datnigganev
24th March '12, 03:37 PM
The Bilbao suckage ITT<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Not mentioning that Spuds, Arsenal and Chelsea shit on anything outside of the big 2 in Spain<<<<<

People not rrealising Athletico pre Simeone<<<<<<

Eagz
24th March '12, 03:45 PM
It's not Bilbao suckage... But who do you think is a better team.. Bilbao? Or Swansea? Or Sunderland? Or Everton? Or Stoke?

Hij
24th March '12, 03:48 PM
Take your head out of your arse gif mate this thread wasn't just about Man United because you lost to Bilbao

English football has declined.

Remind me how your group stage went btw

datnigganev
24th March '12, 03:55 PM
It's not Bilbao suckage... But who do you think is a better team.. Bilbao? Or Swansea? Or Sunderland? Or Everton? Or Stoke?

Liverpool and Newcastle are very similar if not better than Bilbao. Fact is nobody knew much about them until the recent united games. Llorente, Munain and Martinez>>>>> tho. You're acting like swansea haven't beat City,Arsenal and others at home this season.

Ridiculous.

FoundTheGif
24th March '12, 04:18 PM
Take your head out of your arse gif mate this thread wasn't just about Man United because you lost to Bilbao

English football has declined.

Remind me how your group stage went btw
I know that. But this is the main argument for why people think La Liga is better than the EPL

The Messiah
24th March '12, 11:21 PM
When people say the English League is the best because it's the most exciting. It depends what you like doesn't it.

Serie A had a huge following in the late 90s when it was on Channel 4. Serie A had superstars, Capello was murking with Juve and people enjoyed the tactical nature of the football.

I still enjoy watching when I happen to be in a house with Sky. Wouldn't go out of my way to watch it though, same is true for a lot of Premiership games though.


I know that. But this is the main argument for why people think La Liga is better than the EPL

It's not. As a whole I've always thought the top 10 in Spain are better than England's top 10. The Top 5 clubs in England are dominant and capable of beating anyone (bar Real/Barca), but outside that, the Spanish teams would clean up.

FoundTheGif
24th March '12, 11:27 PM
It's not. As a whole I've always thought the top 10 in Spain are better than England's top 10. The Top 5 clubs in England are dominant and capable of beating anyone (bar Real/Barca), but outside that, the Spanish teams would clean up.

It seemed to be the main reason in this thread.