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View Full Version : Arsene - "Ox it's your time young buck



50 Cedis
27th December '11, 12:20 PM
The 18-year-old arrived at Emirates Stadium from Southamptonover the summer but has so far had to wait patiently for first-team chances, with Wenger opting to take the conservative approach.

Oxlade-Chamberlain scored on his UEFA Champions League debut against Olympiakos in September but his only taste of Premier League action to date came as a substitute in the 8-2 mauling at Manchester United on 28th August.

While Wenger feels that introduction was 'not the best of favours I have done', the Gunners boss is in no doubt Oxlade-Chamberlain can go from strength to strength in 2012 - which could even end with inclusion in the England squad for the European Championship.

"In 2012, at the beginning of the year, he will play games. He is not far," said Wenger, whose side will host Wolves at the Emirates Stadium on Tuesday in a fixture which was put back from Boxing Day because of industrial action by some London Underground staff.

"Alex is a talented boy, it is all there - he just needs that toughness in the game and because every game for us is so tight.

"At Aston Villa last week, again, I could have brought him on and you have the hesitation to do it - but you do not want him to be a little bit overruled by the intensity of the game.

"He is ready to play. Alex is just missing that experience at the top level. You have to throw him a few games."

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/7396909/

EA
27th December '11, 12:38 PM
I see Wenger's learned from his mistakes with Walcott. It's good that he's not throwing him in the deep end straight away.

zurich
27th December '11, 12:40 PM
Was he on the bench agaisnt Villa?

BIGLEE
27th December '11, 12:52 PM
Yeah

Zoffie
27th December '11, 02:05 PM
I see Wenger's learned from his mistakes with Walcott. It's good that he's not throwing him in the deep end straight away.

Sustained. People always talk about it like it's a positive when you play players as soon as possible.

"When you're good enough, you're old enough"

Arsenal would have had a better chance to see more of Cesc's prime years if they kept him away from the first team.
Cesc said something like he felt like he was going through the motions at Arsenal and that he needed a new challenge.

OF COURSE!! How are you supposed to keep these players motivated when you want to give them the whole world as a teenager.

Players like Oxlade should just be reminded that he has a lot of work to do before he's ready for the 1st team, hunger for younger players to have to work hard & to improve no matter the talent shouldn't be robbed. McEachran might now be loaned & consequently could be accelerated into the full limelight, most CFC fans are happy with this & he is a great talent, but, it's a lot of short-termism.

There's only a certain type of player that I'd play when they're in their teens. Oxlade is lucky he's at Arsenal with other great talent, more than this "he needs to get games argument"..

The one thing that gets players to improve & get better is by putting them among other quality players

EA
27th December '11, 03:16 PM
Tbf, Cesc's graduation into the first team was accelerated because Arsenal never bought a suitable replacement for Viera.

I still think it's a bit early for Ox anyway. He'll probably cope in terms of ability but it's the physicality of the Premiership that I'm worried about. It was the physicality that stunted Walcott's development since he kept on getting injured.

Samir_NasG
27th December '11, 03:43 PM
2012 - year of the ox!

316
27th December '11, 07:27 PM
shouldve come on today tbh

i dont think the physicality would trouble him like it did to walcott cuz he is hench tbh

n yeah i said b4 as well cuz of the african cup of nations, hopefully ryo miyaichi gets a chance as well, a bit of playing time, but he might loan him out though

daspecimen
27th December '11, 07:37 PM
The game was crying out for him to exploit the space today.

Its all well and good Wenger saying he's ready, he's just not got the experience yet when he doesn't get the oppurtunities.

Kartel
27th December '11, 07:45 PM
I still think Fergie is the best at developing young players

316
27th December '11, 07:54 PM
I still think Fergie is the best at developing young players

no no, sorry no

it has been proven

just cuz fergie had one squad he developed from young n stuck with them for 60 years doesnt mean he is tbh

wenger has done it in a shorter period of time n sold them on for profit or they think they are the best thing in the world after one good season n leave but then flop n realise theyre not n it was a mistake to leave but by then its too late

Kartel
27th December '11, 08:03 PM
no no, sorry no

it has been proven

just cuz fergie had one squad he developed from young n stuck with them for 60 years doesnt mean he is tbh

wenger has done it in a shorter period of time n sold them on for profit or they think they are the best thing in the world after one good season n leave but then flop n realise theyre not n it was a mistake to leave but by then its too late

How many title winning squads has Wenger had?

50 Cedis
27th December '11, 08:06 PM
How many title winning squads has Wenger had?

that's not the point he was making tho, most of those title winning squads consisted of players that were developed at other clubs then brought by fergie.

316
27th December '11, 08:07 PM
How many title winning squads has Wenger had?

the same amount as alex ferguson tbh except it didnt take wenger as long

Zoffie
27th December '11, 08:30 PM
I think Ferguson is better too, I don't think it's anything about winning squads and I think fans give way too much credit to the clubs or the managers when there is a success story.. yunno all of a sudden, it's the club or the manager that "made" the player.

Very few times I look at the player before they went to the club and see that w/o that cub, they probably wouldn't have hit the heights. When you think about a situation like that, you immediately think of Henry.

Still, I don't see as many strategies implemented into a creating a successful career with Arsene like with Wenger.
Like I say, I think people overrate both of their influences, Sturridge came to Chelsea at the same age, Cristiano & Rooney went to United, if he grows here and goes strength to strength, I'm not gonna say we made him, players grow...

..but Ferguson's bet with Cristiano for the goals thing,, just one of a many number of strategies that has panned out for him when helping to build a career.

I think that with Wenger, it's just that Arsenal knew the foreign market better than their competitors before, more than developing young players, he has been hands on with Walcott on how he sees him, we're yet to see if that was a success.

Kartel
27th December '11, 09:01 PM
that's not the point he was making tho, most of those title winning squads consisted of players that were developed at other clubs then brought by fergie.

1992/1993 team
Giggs - Youth squad at United
Ince - Joined United when 22
Kanchelskis - Joined when 22
Hughes - Youth team at United
Mclair - Joined when 24
Pallister - Joined when 24
Irwin - Joined when 25

1993/94

Sharpe - Joined when 17
Pallister - Joined when 24
Robson - Joined when 24
Keane - Joined when 22

1995/96

Cole - Joined when 24
Butt - Youth squad
G. Neville - Youth squad
Scholes - Youth squad
P. Neville - Youth squad
Beckham - Youth squad

1996/97
Cruyff - Joined when 22
Solskjaer - Joined when 23

1998/99
Blomqvist - Joined when 24
Brown - youth squad

1999/00

Bosnich - Joined when 17
Silvestre - Joined when 22

2002/03

Van nistelrooy - Joined when 25
O'Shea - Joined when 17

2006/07

Evra - Joined when 25
Ferdinand - Joined when 24
Ronaldo - Joined when 18
Rooney - Joined when 19

2007/08
Anderson - joined when 19
Park - Joined when 24
Vidic - Joined when 25
Nani - Joined when 21
Pique - Joined when 17
Evans - Youth squad
Fletcher - Youth squad
Tevez - Joined when 23

2008/09
Fabio - Joined when 18
Rafael - Joined when 18
Macheda - Joined when 16

2010/11
Smalling - Joined when 18
Hernandez - Joined when 22
Valencia - Joined when 24
Gibson - Youth squad

2011/12
De Gea - Joined when 21
Jones - Joined when 19
Wellbeck - Youth squad
Cleverley - Youth squad

50 Cedis
27th December '11, 09:05 PM
if you joined a club at 22 you were not developed at that club

Kartel
27th December '11, 11:10 PM
if you joined a club at 22 you were not developed at that club

what age is the peak of a footballers career?

Tony Starks
27th December '11, 11:18 PM
what age is the peak of a footballers career?

Development is in question here, peak is irrelvant

50 Cedis
27th December '11, 11:20 PM
what age is the peak of a footballers career?

depends what position tbh, I personally think that a goalie around 32-35, a centre half between 29-32 midfielder 28-31 and strikers between 27-30

but by 21 a player has already developed their playing style and a lot of their skill set, from 22 onwards mostly what they are doing is just gaining experience. Obviously they are still learning the game but it's the club that a player has been with up till that age that has given him his grounding.

Kartel
28th December '11, 12:19 AM
Development is in question here, peak is irrelvant

to get to the peak a player has to develop, it doesn't matter if a player has developed a little he has to develop even more to reach his potential


depends what position tbh, I personally think that a goalie around 32-35, a centre half between 29-32 midfielder 28-31 and strikers between 27-30

but by 21 a player has already developed their playing style and a lot of their skill set, from 22 onwards mostly what they are doing is just gaining experience. Obviously they are still learning the game but it's the club that a player has been with up till that age that has given him his grounding.

If Vidic had gone to Arsenal instead of going to United when he did, would he have become the player he is?

50 Cedis
28th December '11, 12:27 AM
If Vidic had gone to Arsenal instead of going to United when he did, would he have become the player he is?

in terms of accolades no, but that says more about the people he's playing with with more than the way he is being trained and developed at united.

Jack 1017
28th December '11, 01:10 AM
A bag of bullshit ITT

50 Cedis
28th December '11, 01:54 AM
A bag of bullshit ITT

you can't just come in a thread and make such a sweeping statement like that without explaining what exactly you think is a "bag of bullshit" and why.

Usually I think of you as a good poster but until you explain your post it is null and void tbh

chris89
28th December '11, 01:56 AM
no no, sorry no

it has been proven

just cuz fergie had one squad he developed from young n stuck with them for 60 years doesnt mean he is tbh

wenger has done it in a shorter period of time n sold them on for profit or they think they are the best thing in the world after one good season n leave but then flop n realise theyre not n it was a mistake to leave but by then its too late
Lol don't post normally

Zoffie
28th December '11, 02:27 AM
tl:dr's can skip this one
I think development is what we're talking about, young shouldn't come into it, Wenger did bring Henry along a lot, just because he did it at 22 rather than 18, doesn't matter really.

I don't think managers or clubs can claim such credit for players, unless they had a significant impact on them.

I always cringe when I hear United people trying to claim that they made Rooney, or Cristiano.
Or if Arsenal fans were to say Arsenal/Wenger made RvP.

It doesn't matter that a player flourishes at your club, you didn't make them, if you could make Rooney & Cristiano etc, you would have a gang of them ready to replace him.

Barcelona can say, bang, we have a gang of replacements ready for our first team, as they are actually making players.
Recruitment is king, even Barcelona who are respected in this area just snap up all the bet early & they have little standing in their way, however players do leave w/ a strong Barca accent.

I don't know about Wenger being good at development to be honest, I think it's important to distinguish between development and recruitment, a part from Henry, Adébayor is the only other player where I have thought wow, I didn't expect that from him.
That's significant change. Adebayor was NEVER a goalscorer in my mind when I watched him at Monaco, at Arsenal it just happened for him.

Most other talents he has brought, they haven't gone through a chrysalis into a butterfly type transformation.

As for Ferguson, He's been there for yonks so of course, he's gonna have some players grow up with him, I respect that he encouraged Cristian oto become a goalscorer with (the bet) tactic. I can see he actually has a love for helping those considered rotten apples mentally but are outrageously gifted to succeed and not let their demons ruin their career.

I like that he puts thought into rearing players, for instance, Wenger says he's playing Walcott on the right to help him become a better striker in the future. Ferguson did this for ages all the time before.

He'd play central defenders as full backs & central midfielders as wide players. Central areas are crucial & so the more trusted players were put there. Ferguson would let younger players serve their apprenticeship s out wide & become accustomed before moving them in. Some stayed out wide... Gary Neville was a CB, but, wasn't tall enough any way so just learned how to be a full back.

I think it's great both managers give these guys a platform to show their talent, Owen Coyle gave Wilshere & Sturridge a platform to show what they can do, he admits he didn't really coach them or tell them areas to improve on, they just hadn't had a chance for the spotlight to shine on them yet. A lot of what people consider as development imo is just a player being given a chance to show what they can do.
Of course I expect weak areas to be worked on in training et al, but, you watch a Cristiano video at Sporting you don't think wow what a transformation.

I usually give the most respect to the player, because Daniel Sturridge comes to Chelsea at 18 & goes on to be a star, I'm not going to suggest Chelsea made him, it's laughable. Even City didn't make him. In fact Sturridge knows, he owes everything to his dad, even when he didn't want to do the drills his dad made him do or watch the Brazilian 70's team, his dad made him do it.. I remember Thierry Henry saying his dad was a bit militant with footy training too.

When you consider the likes of Robben's & Henry's dad, that were sports fanatics who trained them into the ground when they were young.. and the likes of Hernandez & Sturridge whose fathers were footballers.. and the fact that they fertilised the eggs
I'm in no doubt, who actually "made" those players

Rambo
28th December '11, 02:39 AM
http://d37nnnqwv9amwr.cloudfront.net/photos/images/newsfeed/000/198/471/ray_charles.jpg

Mr. Jefferies
28th December '11, 04:40 AM
no no, sorry no

it has been proven

just cuz fergie had one squad he developed from young n stuck with them for 60 years doesnt mean he is tbh

wenger has done it in a shorter period of time n sold them on for profit or they think they are the best thing in the world after one good season n leave but then flop n realise theyre not n it was a mistake to leave but by then its too late

ferguson is better and he took united over when they were in a complete mess, wenger inherited a core of the arsenal team like adams, winterburn, dixon, keown, he didn't win the league with a squad of his own until 2004, by which time he was in charge for 8 years. fergie took over united in 86 and won his first league in 93, 7 years after taking over, so no, wenger didn't 'do it' in a shorter period at all.

and what does selling players on for profit have to do with anything?

EA
28th December '11, 01:52 PM
I think people are missing the point 316 is making. If we look at Arsenal & Man Utd, there's a significant difference between the amount of youngsters that have come through the ranks since Wenger has taken over.

Arsenal:
Ashley Cole - arguably the best LB in Europe.
Jack Wilshere - arguably the future of Arsenal's midfield
Theo Walcott - a starter for Arsenal
Kieran Gibbs - a starter for Arsenal (when fit lul)
Alex Song - a key player for Arsenal

This list is just off the top of my head. Then there's guys like Jermaine Pennant & David Bentley who are still floating around in the EPL.

Note: I don't count players like Henry, Adebayor & RvP since they were all bought when they were 20+

How many players can Man Utd fans list?

Samir_NasG
28th December '11, 02:42 PM
I think people are missing the point 316 is making. If we look at Arsenal & Man Utd, there's a significant difference between the amount of youngsters that have come through the ranks since Wenger has taken over.

Arsenal:
Ashley Cole - arguably the best LB in Europe.
Jack Wilshere - arguably the future of Arsenal's midfield
Theo Walcott - a starter for Arsenal
Kieran Gibbs - a starter for Arsenal (when fit lul)
Alex Song - a key player for Arsenal

This list is just off the top of my head. Then there's guys like Jermaine Pennant & David Bentley who are still floating around in the EPL.

Note: I don't count players like Henry, Adebayor & RvP since they were all bought when they were 20+

How many players can Man Utd fans list?

Evans, Cleverley, Welbeck, Fletcher. Plus the likes of Wes Brown and Giggs who are in the twilight of their careers. Think it's pretty equal tbh.

p.s. You forgot Szczesny for us.

Tony Starks
28th December '11, 05:07 PM
Its also about neccessity as United or Madrid etc dont really have to look for bargains and working on developing players as often as Arsenal do

Matt91
28th December '11, 05:31 PM
Man Utd don't develop young players? :lol: what kind of bullshit

Let's just ignore Ronaldo, Nani, Jones, Rooney, Cleverly, Smalling etc

Tony Starks
28th December '11, 05:42 PM
Man Utd don't develop young players? :lol: what kind of bullshit

At no point has anyone said that. It was only disputed that Fergie is the best at developing young players

Mr. Jefferies
28th December '11, 06:00 PM
I think people are missing the point 316 is making. If we look at Arsenal & Man Utd, there's a significant difference between the amount of youngsters that have come through the ranks since Wenger has taken over.

Arsenal:
Ashley Cole - arguably the best LB in Europe.
Jack Wilshere - arguably the future of Arsenal's midfield
Theo Walcott - a starter for Arsenal
Kieran Gibbs - a starter for Arsenal (when fit lul)
Alex Song - a key player for Arsenal

This list is just off the top of my head. Then there's guys like Jermaine Pennant & David Bentley who are still floating around in the EPL.

Note: I don't count players like Henry, Adebayor & RvP since they were all bought when they were 20+

How many players can Man Utd fans list?

scholes
giggs
beckham
gary neville
philip neville
nicky butt
ryan shawcross
keiron richardson
phil bardsley
chris eagles
danny welbeck
darren fletcher
wes brown
john o shea
tom cleverley
johnny evans
fabio
rafael


you've got players like paul pogba, zeki fryers and ravel morrison on the verge of the first team and obviously lads like ronaldo, rooney and nani who signed young and developed at united too. you have players in that list who have gone on to captain other premier league clubs.

Hij
28th December '11, 06:01 PM
Just play the wanker and let him do the talking on the pitch.

Zoffie
28th December '11, 07:15 PM
I don't know what development is considered as, are Newcastle developing Demba Ba?

Fabio & Rafael were at Flu through their youth, go to United & now United have developed them.
A player like Eagles is at United through their youth goes some where else, yet United have still developed them.
Therefore what you're saying is if you employ the player up until they are 25 you have developed him?

Edit: Oh so you used a 20+ rule

Shout-out to Chelsea for being responsible for Robben's talent and developing Lassana Diarra! Well done on Daniel Sturridge's talent boys!
I don't think it's good criteria, of course the top clubs are going to buy top talent when they are young
I find it funny when fans are adamant they are great at developing players with a host of players they have bought.

As soon as Arsenal buy Oxlade Chamberlain they get all the plaudits for developing him when he comes good, a couple of years later?
Barcelona have actually been getting rid of players they have bought to replace them with academy players, that's what you call good at developing to me.


Wenger says he expects Oxlade to have a big 2012 any way

Hij
28th December '11, 07:17 PM
I don't know what development is considered as, are Newcastle developing Demba Ba?

Fabio & Rafael were at Flu through their youth, go to United & now United have developed them.
A player like Eagles is at United through their youth goes some where else, yet United have still developed them.
Therefore what you're saying is if you employ the player up until they are 25 you have developed him?

As soon as Arsenal buy Oxlade Chamberlain they get all the plaudits for developing him when he comes good.

Wenger says he expects Oxlade to have a big 2012 any way
Lol I find myself co-signing the Zoffmeister.

Shower Posse
28th December '11, 07:20 PM
Lol@this thread

Mr. Jefferies
28th December '11, 08:15 PM
I don't know what development is considered as, are Newcastle developing Demba Ba?

Fabio & Rafael were at Flu through their youth, go to United & now United have developed them.
A player like Eagles is at United through their youth goes some where else, yet United have still developed them.
Therefore what you're saying is if you employ the player up until they are 25 you have developed him?

Edit: Oh so you used a 20+ rule

Shout-out to Chelsea for being responsible for Robben's talent and developing Lassana Diarra! Well done on Daniel Sturridge's talent boys!
I don't think it's good criteria, of course the top clubs are going to buy top talent when they are young
I find it funny when fans are adamant they are great at developing players with a host of players they have bought.

As soon as Arsenal buy Oxlade Chamberlain they get all the plaudits for developing him when he comes good, a couple of years later?
Barcelona have actually been getting rid of players they have bought to replace them with academy players, that's what you call good at developing to me.


Wenger says he expects Oxlade to have a big 2012 any way

lol don't blame me, blame the guy who included ashley cole and walcott in arsenal's 'developed' list, i think it's obvious from that i don't know what the criteria for 'developed' is. aside from the twins, all those players came through united's academy, my point still stands.

Hij
28th December '11, 08:24 PM
included ashley cole and walcott in arsenal's 'developed' list:laugh:

187
28th December '11, 09:06 PM
:laugh:

why are you laughing??

Hij
28th December '11, 09:17 PM
I ain't getting involved in the dick swinging contest it just makes me laugh that everyone thinks that Arsene Wenger gets out some magic pixie dust and makes players better.

187
28th December '11, 09:25 PM
I ain't getting involved in the dick swinging contest it just makes me laugh that everyone thinks that Arsene Wenger gets out some magic pixie dust and makes players better.

You would lose anyway strong n/h...

Wenger does make players better tho, only a mong would disagree tbh...

Obviously he makes poor choices aswell but every manger does...

Hij
28th December '11, 09:51 PM
You would lose anyway strong n/h...

Wenger does make players better tho, only a mong would disagree tbh...

Obviously he makes poor choices aswell but every manger does...

So your academy and all the people within it do nothing then?

Zoffie
28th December '11, 10:34 PM
The idea that Wenger makes players better is a weird one..




Senderos came with promise he left being slaughtered as a defender.
Clichy came with promise he left being slaughtered by the fans.
Denilson was rated by a few, he was playing so young & then he was slated by the fans when he left.
Reyes was a sought after talent, Wenger spent a sizable amount on him, close to the time Chelsea bought Robben & United bought Cristiano, Reyes left being deemed not good enough
When Kolo Toure came in everyone complimented him, he wasn't as rated when he left.
Eboue was booed by Arsenal fans.
Arshavin starred in the Euro's and is now as disappointing as ever.
Wenger had high hopes for Nicklas Bendtner, it hasn't panned out
Wenger had high hopes for Carlos Vela, it hasn't come through
We know that everyone's expectations for Walcott are far from being met.



I don't think Arsenal or Wenger are bad, just this whole Wenger makes players better is unfounded and just not true, but, it works for you, players like Ramsey chose Arsenal because he decided that Wenger was great for development. I think it's a myth, but, he does give young players a platform to play, so younger players who want to play can trust that Wenger won't age discriminate like happens at CFC for instance, where there seems a reluctance to play younger players.