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Hij
30th November '11, 07:04 PM
GET IN *FIST PUMP*

Read the bold bit still.


Hillsborough files: Cabinet Office settles with BBC



The Cabinet Office and the BBC have reached a compromise in a long-running freedom of information dispute over documents relating to Margaret Thatcher and the Hillsborough disaster.

The government has promised to release these papers by June next year. On this basis the BBC is dropping its FOI application for them.

The Information Commissioner has also consented to this settlement. As a result the tribunal hearing scheduled to consider the government's appeal against disclosure in February next year will no longer happen.

The Cabinet Office has pledged that it will reveal the material by 30 June if it has not already been issued by the Hillsborough Independent Panel. This is the body set up to review and consider for publication most government records about the 1989 tragedy at the Hillsborough footbal stadium, in which 96 Liverpool fans were killed.

The BBC would like to see the information released as soon as possible, but has accepted this settlement on the basis that in practice it would only lead to a maximum delay of a few weeks.

Tragedy

The Information Rights Tribunal usually takes some weeks to issue a judgement and then gives the public authority another 35 days to comply with it. This means that even if in February the tribunal upholds the case for disclosure argued by the BBC and the Information Commissioner against the Cabinet Office appeal, the material would probably not be published until May 2012 anyway.

The case stems from an FOI application made by the BBC in April 2009, in which we asked for documents relating to cabinet and other discussions about Hillsborough involving the then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher in the wake of the tragedy. Our request was turned down by the Cabinet Office but backed by the Information Commissioner who ruled that releasing the files would be in the public interest.

When announcing its plan to appeal against this, the government argued that all disclosures should be made by the independent panel, which it established several months after the BBC's FOI request. The panel says it intends to report next spring. However, cabinet records were outside the panel's terms of reference.

Damage

Some possible content of the documents involved is hinted at by outline arguments in a preliminary submission to the tribunal by the Cabinet Office this summer, at a time when the government was intending to proceed with its appeal against publication.

The Cabinet Office developed the argument it apparently previously presented to the Information Commissioner that releasing the material now could damage the public relationship with the police so much that even 22 years after the event the public would be less willing to co-operate with the police.

Its submission in August told the tribunal that "absence of controlled disclosure would be likely to focus public debate on the policing alone (rather than the full range of relevant issues) and cause greater damage to relations between the community and the Police."

The Cabinet Office went on to argue that rejecting the BBC's information request was necessary for the sake of "maintaining good relations between the police and the public" and "ensuring that the public co-operate with and assist the police."

Suspicions

The official Taylor inquiry into the causes of the tragedy blamed South Yorkshire Police for failures in crowd control that led to a fatal crush in the Liverpool fans' section of the ground.

This hint may fuel further suspicions among some campaigners about the police actions and what the government knew about them at the time. But at least matters should now become clearer by June next year.

The BBC's view is that the response of the government of the day to Hillsborough is an important matter of public interest. This can only fully be examined by the release of all relevant documents, including cabinet records that were outside the remit of the government's independent panel.

By pursuing this FOI request the BBC has ensured that some potentially crucial files will not remain secret. As a result the general public and those directly affected by the events should end up better informed about how the government reacted to the worst disaster in British sporting history.

lol at "controlled release".

There's more than one bomb in them files.

Hij
16th January '12, 06:30 PM
Please sign lads, will sort you out 1,000 rep for betting on stuff as well.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/19149

If you don't agree, or do not want to sign, you do not have too.

I'll get more information for you later if you want - but basically- the coroner did a mass ruling that all fans were dead by 3:15 - yet there is evidence from eyewitnesses and an ambulance man (a neutral from Yorkshire) who testify he was calling for his mum at 3:45. By preventing ambulances getting onto the pitch, one more needlessly died that day. It's certainly not an "accidental death".

Hopefully if this can get to the 100k, and the papers come out, there can be justice and I'll never have to make a thread on this again. Cheers fellas.

Josh
16th January '12, 06:35 PM
signed

Hij
16th January '12, 06:36 PM
Cheers mate.

Julio Cesar
16th January '12, 06:38 PM
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/636/hmgov.png

Cazorla
16th January '12, 06:42 PM
Signed. It's actually a joke that the truth isn't out there yet. I was born the same year hillsborough happened.

BIGDON
16th January '12, 06:42 PM
would sign but the page dont load for me

Hij
16th January '12, 06:45 PM
Signed. It's actually a joke that the truth isn't out there yet. I was born the same year hillsborough happened.
Cheers.


would sign but the page dont load for me
Refresh!

Julio Cesar
16th January '12, 06:49 PM
would sign but the page dont load for me

Was doing the same for me, you have to let it load for a bit.

BIGDON
16th January '12, 06:53 PM
done

http://i39.tinypic.com/vo8i8k.jpg

Wumbologist
16th January '12, 06:54 PM
done too

Hij
16th January '12, 07:04 PM
Arguably this is more important than the releasing of the files. I don't know what the word is but this is the water shed or something?

Because the coroner ruled that all were dead before 3:15pm - any evidence of any misconduct or cock ups was not looked into after that time. The reason she gets knocked back all the time, is because once it is proven that he son was alive after 3:15pm - then instantly you start an investigation into why he didn't get any help from 3:15pm onwards. You look into why the ambulances were blocked from coming onto the pitch - why the Fire Engines with wire cutting equipment weren't allowed onto the pitch - there's loads more, but it basically opens the floodgates - the 3:15pm cut off point was key to blocking all cries for justice.

Trap*
16th January '12, 07:29 PM
Was just about to post this

Already signed a few times through various emails & addresses

Hutch
16th January '12, 09:33 PM
http://i43.tinypic.com/mlks8y.jpg

MoneyMan
16th January '12, 09:35 PM
Why are there 2 threads for this? I don't think I can sign again lol.

Trap*
18th January '12, 04:04 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-1073369/Hillsborough-victims-mother-Anne-Williams-Its-gone-long-I-want-Sorry.html#ixzz1jo4J1iBE

If anyone wants to know what the petition is about

Scrappy123
18th January '12, 04:54 PM
How is everyone getting on this?:dead:

I have refreshed about 4 times now

EDIT: Done. Don't even care about the 1k.
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/2522/petition.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/petition.png/)
:)

El Asesino
18th January '12, 04:55 PM
never got the 1k, posted proof in other thread

im mad tbh

Josh
18th January '12, 05:19 PM
never got the 1k, posted proof in other thread

im mad tbh

surely you should just be happy that you contributed to a petition that may help bring some truth on an issue that your club was involved with

Brisboy84
18th January '12, 05:29 PM
Signed this yesterday as i saw it going round Twitter. Dosen't even take long to do. The Hillsborough thing is always gonna annoy me the way they've made a mess of the case. No excuses for the way it's been conducted and the fact it's still not been resolved.

AJNorthEast
18th January '12, 06:08 PM
Dont know how to upload the pic but done it.

quality
18th January '12, 06:14 PM
Signed, don't worry about the rep.

Jack 1017
18th January '12, 06:53 PM
Can confirm I have signed bros

Rambo
18th January '12, 07:02 PM
signed

Plak
18th January '12, 07:04 PM
signed.

El Asesino
19th January '12, 01:09 AM
surely you should just be happy that you contributed to a petition that may help bring some truth on an issue that your club was involved with

I am happy, I'm not happy however that I've be hustled to the tune of 1,000 rep points.

Alter E-ghost
19th January '12, 06:10 AM
Signed just now.

Hij how successful have other petitions been?

Trap*
19th January '12, 01:07 PM
99,204
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/19149

Jack 1017
19th January '12, 01:32 PM
I am happy, I'm not happy however that I've be hustled to the tune of 1,000 rep points.

Pretty sure Hij has made a fred like this before, I can confirm no rep was handed out then lulul

chris89
19th January '12, 01:36 PM
Pretty sure Hij has made a fred like this before, I can confirm no rep was handed out then lulul

Will write to my MP about this

Jack 1017
19th January '12, 01:44 PM
Dont worry bro I have already sent mine multiple emails and expressed how in favor of SOPA I am, had enough of being lied to by these forum admins r/s

Xtra P
19th January '12, 03:02 PM
I want my rep in unmarked notes delivered by that ilove leesh chick, it is then and only then I will sign

Hij
19th January '12, 10:45 PM
I did the first 10 or so people I hope they can confirm, and then I was away for a bit trying to get laid. Trying being the operative word last night, but hopefully not tomorrow :laugh:

Anyway, 116k COME ON!

Hutch
19th January '12, 10:51 PM
81,000 signatures in 3 days

Hij
21st January '12, 06:28 AM
I've stood on the Kop next to people who lost their brothers and sisters. I stood there against Arsenal when we did Truth day in the FA Cup and I brought a banner as a random wanker who really doesn't deserve to say anything and I still have two of them in my room about this but it was a day to support those who lost loved ones after Kelvin Mackenzie perpetuated his lies about survivors pissing on the dead, so I did anyway, but I didn't realise I would end at the front of the Kop with my banner displayed on match of the day next to a lad who lost his brother there. He held the otherside of the banner up with me, we sang Justice for the 96 for the first 6 minutes of the game as a group of people, as a Kop, as a stadium. I've never felt that way before. Thierry Henry even commented on it after the game, but this lad grabbed me at the end of the 6 minutes and hugged me and he cried, his brother died at Hillsborough. I've never felt more humbled in my life and I guess that's why since then I've always been so keen myself having seen people it has affected. And why I'm such a cunt on here to people who disrespect it.

Whoever signed, let me sort your rep out. I'm sorry for being long. PM me.

And whoever did sign it, thank you so much, we reached the 100,000 signatures in 3 days. 22 years is too long for Justice for Anne Williams, but eventually it can be put right. No-one deserves to have their son die over bullshit, and ineptness.

Whoever signed it, and meant it, thank you. If Anne Williams gets justice for her son, the floodgates will open for lots of others and you can all pat yourselves on the back. 22 years is too long for a mother who had to identify her son in a morgue in Sheffield, when he could have been saved at the ground.

The mother of a young man who died in the Hillsborough disaster (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/hillsborough-disaster) has had an e-petition calling for a new inquest into his death signed by more than 100,000 people, so qualifying it for a possible parliamentary debate. Anne Williams, whose son Kevin was 15 when he died at the 1989 FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/liverpool) and Nottingham Forest at Sheffield Wednesday's ground, has never picked up Kevin's death certificate because she does not believe the official account of how he died.

Since the disaster almost 23 years ago Williams has always disputed the legitimacy of the subsequent inquest into the deaths of the 96 mostly young Liverpool supporters. The Sheffield-based coroner, Dr Stefan Popper, ruled that he would take no evidence on anything that happened after 3:15pm on the day of the disaster.

That was only 11 minutes after the 3:04pm "surge" in the Leppings Lane end, which precipitated the worst of the fatal crushing, and so it eliminated from the inquest any examination of the police's and the emergency services' response, which is now accepted to have been inadequate.

Lord Justice Taylor in his interim report on the disaster, which found the primary cause of the disaster was mismanagement by South Yorkshire police, noted that it was 3:13pm when a sole St John Ambulance vehicle came on to the pitch. There was, Taylor recorded, a "belated call" for medical assistance from doctors and nurses in the crowd at 3:30.

Owing to a pending investigation into possible criminal charges against those responsible for the disaster – none were ultimately brought – the coroner held "mini-inquests" into the individual victims' deaths, with very limited evidence heard and no cross-examination permitted. The combination of that process and the 3:15pm cut-off imposed at the main inquest means that the families of those who died have never had a detailed account of what happened, the response to it, and whether their loved ones might have been saved.

The jury at the main inquest delivered a verdict of accidental death, not unlawful killing, which left many families feeling that nobody in charge was ever held responsible. A group of families failed with a legal challenge to the coroner's conduct of the inquest, including the 3:15pm cut-off and the manner of his summing-up.

Williams's own investigation into the circumstances of Kevin's death found that two witnesses, Derek Bruder, an off-duty police officer, and a woman special police constable, had both testified that Kevin had signs of life up to 4pm. Bruder said that he felt a pulse, the SPC that Kevin had opened his eyes and said "Mum".

The statements of both these witnesses were changed following visits from the West Midlands police, the force that investigated Hillsborough on behalf of Taylor, the coroner and the Department of Public Prosecutions. Since then, both witnesses have stood by their original statements.

The cause of Kevin's death was given officially as traumatic asphyxia, a crush injury which meant he would have been dead by 3:15pm, within minutes of the crush itself. However, Williams has since obtained the opinions of three senior medical experts, one of whom, Dr Iain West, consultant forensic pathologist at London's Guy's Hospital, decided Kevin in fact had neck injuries and might have been saved had he received the correct assistance at the scene, after 3:15pm.

A fleet of ambulances were waiting outside the ground, but they were never called to assist the dying and injured Liverpool supporters. The more recent South Yorkshire police chief constable Meredydd Hughes, who retired last year, has told the Guardian that the response to the unfolding disaster was "chaotic" and there had been a failure of leadership.

Anne Williams's petition states: "Kevin did not die from traumatic asphyxia or in an accident; I will not pick up his death certificate until we get the cause of death put right and the accidental death verdict struck down." In relation to the way the witness statements were changed to suggest there were no signs of life after 3:15pm, Williams's petition alleges: "Kevin's inquests were riddled with corruption, suppressing of vital evidence and perverting the course of justice."

An e-petition to the government requires 100,000 signatures for it to qualify for consideration as the subject of a parliamentary debate. Williams's had only 35,000 two days before its deadline on Thursday. Then in a surge of support following campaigns on Twitter, Facebook and Liverpool supporter websites, the 100,000 figure was passed by noon on Thursday.
Williams thanked everybody who signed the petition and said she will be speaking to Stephen Mosley, the Conservative MP for Chester, where she lives, to urge him to call for a parliamentary debate. Her petition concludes: "I want the attorney general to look at the evidence again and send Kevin's case back to the divisional court recommending a new inquest into the death of my son."

An independent panel chaired by James Jones, the Anglican bishop of Liverpool, is currently examining all the official documents held by South Yorkshire police, the ambulance authority and all other public bodies relating to Hillsborough, to prepare a report into the disaster, which is expected in the summer.

Mr. Jefferies
21st January '12, 06:29 AM
i signed. it's in the other thread though.

Josh
21st January '12, 06:34 AM
that's deep

Hij
21st January '12, 07:28 AM
i signed. it's in the other thread though.
Safe g.

No-ones offspring should die before them with no reason

Hij
21st January '12, 07:41 AM
VxFjTdP5gus

This is the game I was at. We got battered, but Henry knew what was good and that's why Anfield always respect him. I'm in the corner of the Kop, but that doesn't matter as much as justice.

Alter E-ghost
21st January '12, 12:32 PM
Rah, the response was actually amazing. Hopefully justice comes from it.

Hij
17th August '12, 01:12 AM
November........

The Attorney General has off the record already declared there will be a new inquiry.

Manslaughter charges incoming.

Hij
11th September '12, 05:29 PM
The report is out tomorrow at midday.

Not sure what it will reveal yet. Cheers to whoever signed both petitions I posted up though.


some questions related to the cause: Why was a venue without a safety certificate used for such a high-profile match? Why did just one ambulance of 42 make it on to the pitch? Why were only 14 of the victims taken to hospital?

.

Trap*
11th September '12, 07:44 PM
4C5fVUyXGfo

Hij
11th September '12, 07:48 PM
Good of him to do that. I feel slightly awkward that he may be using it to resurrect his image, but hardly any other footballer is as vocal as him so fair play. He wore a JFT96 shirt in Marsielle when he signed.

Hij
11th September '12, 10:18 PM
Front page of Independent says at least four junior police statements were edited by superiors to paint them in a better light.

quality
11th September '12, 10:52 PM
Hij see Andy Burnham's mug all over the telly, what did Labour do in their 13 years? I say this as a Labour voter btw.

Hij
11th September '12, 10:59 PM
@Hij (http://www.grimeforum.com/forum/member.php?u=1) see Andy Burnham's mug all over the telly, what did Labour do in their 13 years? I say this as a Labour voter btw.

Not so much a labour thing as an Andy Burnham and Steve Rotheram thing- that they fought to get it to the debate, then they excelled at the debate and have tirelessly used their positions to help.

He turned up three years ago to make a speech and got "Justice for the 96" chanted at him. He nodded, he went away, he played a massive part. He deserves all the credit he gets.

sil-qX3brzk

I'm also a Labour voter tbh.

quality
11th September '12, 11:02 PM
No I just meant did the party as a whole do anything when they could? Not saying he doesn't deserve credit, but they could have done something no?

Pirate
11th September '12, 11:10 PM
yo Hij what kinda stuff are they expecting to be said that we don't already know?

Hij
11th September '12, 11:19 PM
Apart from the leak regarding more officers having their story changed I don't know.

I'd expect there is more than enough evidence to prove that people died after 3:15pm, which would mean a new inquest and hopefully one wrong will be righted in that the deaths will change from "Accidental Death" to "Unlawful Killing" - at least demonstrating that the disaster was preventable.

And secondly, for the emergency services to have to admit they fucked up.

As for stuff beyond that, like collusion between Thatcher and the police, there is no way that's coming out, even if it was true, it'd all be off the record, they aren't stupid.


No I just meant did the party as a whole do anything when they could? Not saying he doesn't deserve credit, but they could have done something no?

They promised a new enquiry in 97' in their manifesto and reneged on it when they got to power.

The online petitions started, and it was said that anything that got over 100,000 signatures would be debated in Parliament. That's why I was trying to get extra signatures on here as I just thought every little helps no Tesco. They still tried block the debate off as well (the MP from Duckenfields constituency) but eventually it happened.

Hopefully it's just the beginning of the end, and the lies can be put to bed.

Pirate
11th September '12, 11:45 PM
Ah fair enough, thought some earth-shattering shit would be on the way, seems not (no disrespect, just mean that's all stuff everyone knew anyway really)

Hij
12th September '12, 12:00 AM
Ah fair enough, thought some earth-shattering shit would be on the way, seems not (no disrespect, just mean that's all stuff everyone knew anyway really)

There may be some explosive shit in there, but I wouldn't want to suggest either way at this stage, I've not seen the files.

While a lot is common knowledge, nothing has been done, and no new inquiry has been had, this should at least enable that to happen.

A detailed picture of how the evidence of junior police officers present at the Hillsborough football disaster was systematically distorted can be revealed today, as an independent panel prepares to deliver the findings of its exhaustive investigation into the afternoon that claimed the lives of 96 fans.

The Independent has obtained four previously unpublished witness statements written by police constables, who were all on duty at the Leppings Lane end on the disastrous day of Liverpool's FA Cup semi-final with Nottingham Forest in 1989.

They show how the documents, originally prepared for an internal inquiry, were altered prior to Lord Taylor's official inquiry later that year to ensure that South Yorkshire Police emerged from the tragedy in a significantly more positive light.

The testimony of one constable, 31-year-old Martin McLoughlin, was crossed through so two paragraphs of criticism were entirely deleted. PC McLoughlin, who had nine years' service with the force, described how police had "appeared to be a bit thin on the ground for the numbers of people involved" on the fateful afternoon of 15 April 1989.

He also detailed how officers on duty at the stadium had a "poor supply of personal radios" when the catastrophic decision to allow fans to enter the Leppings Lane end through an exit gate led to many being crushed to death inside a stadium, which lacked an up-to-date safety certificate.

Pc McLoughlin described how "it seemed very bad that only one in our serial the sergeant should have a personal radio. We had great difficulty in finding out what happened and what was happening and for too long a time we were basically working in the dark."

All of these criticisms are struck through and an earlier reference to "the only officer with a personal radio" has been rewritten to read "who had a personal radio", making it appear as though the officers were better-equipped.
Pc McLoughlin's testimony that he could hear "the voices of more and more officers getting desperate" over the police radio is replaced simply with the words "increased radio traffic". Another of the phrases deleted from his testimony reads: "Basically it was chaos".

A similar picture of institutional failing emerges in the testimony of Pc Alan Wadsworth, in whose report the following words were crossed out: "There was no leadership at the Leppings Lane end following the disaster, either in person or on the radio. The only officer I heard on the radio with any form of organization and method was Chief Superintendent Nesbitt (sic) [a reference to John Nesbit, traffic division commander] who did not arrive until later."

An attempt to deliver praise to Liverpool fans appears to have been crossed from the testimony of a fourth officer, David Sumner, who says that "many fans assisted in the removal of the dead and injured from the field".

The apparent manipulation of evidence is revealed in documents that were initially written as part of the original South Yorkshire Police investigation into the disaster. Many still showed their annotations when Lord Justice Taylor suddenly demanded them for his 1989 inquiry into tragedy. They were placed in the House of Lords library several years ago when the former Labour Home Secretary, Jack Straw, ordered that South Yorkshire Police disclose them.

Deposited in 10 boxes, over the years some have emerged to paint a partial picture of the cover-up, upon which these testimonies shed new light. The Labour MP Andy Burnham, himself from Merseyside, drew attention to several manipulated testimonies in the House of Commons last October.

The doctored statements are one example of the volumes of evidence 40,000 pages in all which the Independent Panel will have examined since being established in January 2010 on the initiative of Mr Burnham, then the Culture Secretary, to bring "full public disclosure" of all relevant national and local government documentation relating to Hillsborough.

The most keenly awaited evidence in the report to be published today is the medical records of the 96 fans who died in the disaster, which may demonstrate that the Hillsborough inquest coroner, Stefan Popper, was wrong to say that nothing could have been done after his self-imposed 3.15pm "cut-off" time to save any of the lives lost. This decision severely limited the scope of the inquests, which delivered an accidental death verdict.

There is a growing sense on Merseyside that the "cut-off" time will be shown to be discredited, paving the way for fresh inquests into the deaths. Since no court, tribunal or public inquiry has ever examined what happened after 3.15pm, the emergency service response to the events of the fateful afternoon have gone unchallenged since Lord Justice Taylor's report into the tragedy was published in 1990.

A further statement from the boxes reveals how statements were entirely rewritten by officers, allowing none of the criticisms which Lord Justice Taylor directed in his report towards the inexperienced Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield for "failing to take effective control" and making the calamitous decision to open Exit Gate C.

One version of the second officer's statement includes the genuine conclusions he reached. "After the incident I felt shocked and upset," he said. "My enduring feelings are anger and guilt. I was less than 20 yards from people struggling for their life and was not aware of their plight. No radio or Tannoy communications were apparent throughout the incident."

A handwritten annotated note attached to the report asked the Pc to "remove the last page, excluding last paragraph". Another note states: "rewritten as requested". In a second version of the report, also included in the file, all the original criticisms are absent.

What the officers witnessed clearly took its toll on some of them. In 2004, Sheffield Crown Court heard how Pc McLoughlin was so traumatised by the events he witnessed at Hillsborough that he lost his job, marriage and almost his life, when he used skills acquired in the force to make a hoax bomb device and threatened to detonate it at high-security psychiatric unit in Rotherham.

Clive Eboue
12th September '12, 03:01 AM
Hij before I say this I know I'm a wind up merchant but I want to assure you I'm not taking the piss in this instance, I'm just genuinely intrigued as I see how passionate you are about achieving justice for those Liverpool fans.

Why are you so passionate about it? Fair enough the parents/family/friends have a right to know whether fans were killed because of an error of judgement by the Police but what realistically would change?

Hij
12th September '12, 03:09 AM
The guy I go to all the games with and who took me to Istanbul was there, and the way he talks about it is so sad, so for him I would like to see the guilt lifted from his shoulders as he survived it and its a burden I think is particularly unfair (many of the people who survived believe it is their fault because they were there, and they lived while others died)

When we did Truth Day against Arsenal in the FA Cup in 2006, not only did the reaction of the Kop force me to completely research into it afterward, I helped a guy hold up a banner at the front of the Kop who I found out whose brother died, and after the 6 minutes of chanting he hugged me afterward and cried which was pretty humbling. Because after researching thoroughly into it, I was astounded that such a ridiculous tragedy could take place and the blame could so easily, readily and shamefully be shifted onto innocent people, mainly just because they were scouse, lower class, and football fans and thus not deserving.

Because of the people you meet and converse with and the stories you hear. As a weird personal one which I know is reaching but I cannot help thinking about it when I watch the harrowing clips, I'm very claustrophobic myself, and pretty slight, so when you analyse it, if I had been there, say, if I was born earlier and followed a similar path towards supporting Liverpool in my late teens/early twenties, I could have been there, I would have been one of the first to perish. I've attended three FA Cup Semi finals already. And finally because, I don't think I'd be much of a person, standing next to people who have suffered and singing "You'll Never Walk Alone" with them, if I then did just that, and let them walk alone, it would be pretty hollow.

To answer your question with a question though, why shouldn't I (or anyone else for that matter) be passionate about it? What criteria do you think is acceptable for someone to lend a hand in whichever way they can towards righting a tragedy such as this? As afterall, it took the campaigning of all sorts of fans (from Arsenal to Celtic, from Everton to Manchester United) to get it this far, the families/friends/parents couldn't have done it all on their own.

And I hope tomorrow marks the start of bringing peace to several people I know who have been affected by it for over 23 years and all of those who I don't, because just like Bloody Sunday, justice should always prevail in the end.

Clive Eboue
12th September '12, 03:27 AM
Fair play mate, I haven't read in to the disaster itself that much and I know your knowledge on the subject is extensive so I thought I would ask for an in depth summary. I see what you mean now.

My Grandad told me he was at Hillsborough that day but whenever he used to try and talk to me about it when I was younger I wasn't really interested, will have to have a proper talk with him about it.

Sean
12th September '12, 09:36 AM
Cant be bothered to make a new thread.

Hij

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19543964

Hillsborough papers set to be released in Liverpool

Previously unseen government papers about the Hillsborough disaster will be released to the public later.

Hij
12th September '12, 10:39 AM
Statement at 12:30pm in Parliament. No idea what it will say mate. And report back Clive!

Hij
12th September '12, 10:57 AM
At 3.06pm after the police reinforcements had signalled the severity of the problem, the referee led both teams off.
The perimeter gates were opened and hundreds of seriously injured fans spilled on to the grass and collapsed, desperate for ambulances, stretchers and oxygen that never arrived.

The penalty area looked like a battlefield.

Between the bodies, casualties staggered around, dazed, confused, weeping.

Apart from a handful of St John Ambulancemen, the only medical aid for the dying came from fellow fans.

They tried resuscitation and tore down advertising hoardings to ferry victims the length of the pitch to what quickly became a makeshift mortuary. Some policemen joined in. Others berated fans for ripping down the hoardings to make stretchers.

http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article388415.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Together+in+the+darkest+hours:+Hero+supporters+car ry+the+injured+on+makeshift+stretchers+made+from+a dvertising+hoardings
Together in the darkest hours: Hero supporters carry the injured on makeshift stretchers made from advertising hoardings


Dozens more police were drafted on to the pitch, not to help casualties but to form a wall across the half- way line to prevent rival fans getting at each other.

Clearly back in the control room the carnage was still being put down to hooliganism.

Half an hour after the players had left the pitch a solitary ambulance made its way slowly towards the Leppings Lane end. That even one made it was a minor miracle.

Tony Edwards, the only professional ambulanceman to reach the Leppings Lane end, recalled what happened outside the ground. He said: " A policeman came to my window and said, ' You can't go on the pitch, they 're still fighting'."

He went on nonetheless, but his job was made impossible by the scale of the casualties.

The memory of bodies being piled on to his ambulance, of people pleading with him to take their friends and loved ones, of the anarchy that made his job impossible, haunts him to this day.

But what haunts him most is the knowledge that he was the only paramedic trying to help. He said: "There were 42 ambulances, including mine, waiting outside the stadium. That means 80- odd trained staff could have been inside the ground. They weren't allowed in because they were told there was fighting.

"But there was no fighting. The survivors were deciding who was the priority, who we should deal with. The police weren't. We weren't Can you imagine a rail accident where all the ambulances wait on the embankment while survivors bring the casualties up?"

Of the 94 who died that day ( 14-year-old Lee Nicol died four days later and 18-year-old Tony Bland had his life support machine turned off in March 1993) only 14 made it to hospital.

Hij
12th September '12, 11:51 AM
Alcohol levels taken from survivors without their consent in order to try and push the blame onto the supporters.

Coroner suggested not having post mortem's for all survivors because presumption they all died the same way - an illegal act.

The police federation brief was that blame must be laid at the supporters door and all manner of statements were edited or re-submitted to pain Liverpool supporters in a worse a light as possible, and the police in a better one.

And these are just leaks.

quality
12th September '12, 12:12 PM
My thoughts are as follows, am on my phone at work and I don't have tapatalk so can't really read the thread atm.

Hillsborough is always one of those things I vaguely knew about, but it wasn't until the last one or two years I've actually started understanding what happened. That's a credit to the campaigners. Until then I, probably like most people, just knew the numbers of dead and the (soon to be dismissed) allegations of crowd trouble.

On the other hand, Liverpool FC's sentimentality has wound me up in the past. Added to the information available to me in the mainstream and hearsay etc, I probably didn't really understand the search for justice. Worth saying I never made jokes though etc, even with my limited understanding. Never really got mocking the dead.

Now I think I do understand the search for justice (as much as I can). It's not about mopery, or a sense of victimhood, or even people getting banged up for covering stuff up... It's about addressing the fundamental misconceptions people like me had about what happened - due to ignorance and being misled.

I can't imagine how it must be told that your loved one died as a result of their own actions, was urinated on, robbed etc. It's disgusting when I actually think about it, and time that the record was fundamentally set straight. And those 96, plus their families and survivors, viewed the way they are in Liverpool around the country - as innocents, victims of poor crowd control and a really horrible and self-effacing cover up afterwards.

I'm not sure what'll be done in terms of criminal action, and it must be horrible to have confirmed more could have been done to save lives, but if people like me are a bit more informed and lies addressed then that's something.

Hij
12th September '12, 12:18 PM
A very honest and frank post mate, thanks for sharing.

I think it would be a large step forwards if like you say Quality it's recognised exactly what happened that day, the myths are dispelled and then subsequently those that continue to perpetuate those myths are rightly ostracised.

I think there is no chance of criminal convictions, nor do I think they would be appropriate, but it would certainly be better if the the record was set straight, that it was no accidental death, and the failure of the senior police officers that day, was inept and contributed directly to what happened and the people that purposefully tried to deflect blame, and who put the families and those who were there that day through the mill by their lies are singled out and blamed publicly in the press, just like Liverpool fans were in 89'.

Hij
12th September '12, 12:29 PM
@TheFarm2012 (https://twitter.com/TheFarm2012) Police changed or deleted 116 of 164 statements by officers to shift blame on to the fans in an orchestrated cover up!

Hij
12th September '12, 12:39 PM
Fucking hell, it's gone off in Parliament.

El Asesino
12th September '12, 12:45 PM
cameron gets more votes come like he gives a fuck about human life

i hate politics

quality
12th September '12, 12:46 PM
@TheFarm2012 (https://twitter.com/TheFarm2012) Police changed or deleted 116 of 164 statements by officers to shift blame on to the fans in an orchestrated cover up!

Scary, scary stuff.

Hij
12th September '12, 12:48 PM
I've just watched the Prime Minister's speech, I couldn't believe I was hearing and watching what he was saying.

Gasps in the house as he revealed some of the new evidence and facts. I hope this gets the full publication tomorrow.

The fucking Sun can fuck off.

Hij
12th September '12, 01:05 PM
The fact that the ambulance service also altered statements from staff is revealed for the first time. The evidence shows "conclusively" that Liverpool fans "neither caused nor contributed to the deaths" and shows the extent to which attempts, endorsed by the SYP chief constable Peter Wright, were made to smear them.

Xtra P
12th September '12, 01:13 PM
There should be an inquest into how the authorities acted that day surely?

Hij
12th September '12, 01:20 PM
I would hope so, that cannot be allowed to happen again.

I hope this at least shows I wasn't chatting shit when asking you lot to help sign petitions and stuff and thanks for doing so.

Cazorla
12th September '12, 01:32 PM
Honestly when i signed those petitions i didn't actually think any information would be released, i thought they'd find a way to cover it up.

Glad the truth is coming out now, the fact its taken 23 years is a joke.

kilik
12th September '12, 01:39 PM
Honestly when i signed those petitions i didn't actually think any information would be released, i thought they'd find a way to cover it up.

Glad the truth is coming out now, the fact its taken 23 years is a joke.

just shows it was covered up as they knew it was the police fault.

I havent been watching the news, can anyone tell me what new info has been released?

M.O.G.
12th September '12, 01:39 PM
Honestly when i signed those petitions i didn't actually think any information would be released, i thought they'd find a way to cover it up.

Glad the truth is coming out now, the fact its taken 23 years is a joke.

.

The sun will be used as toilet paper, shit paper shit writers, just shit.

Hij
12th September '12, 01:52 PM
just shows it was covered up as they knew it was the police fault.

I havent been watching the news, can anyone tell me what new info has been released?

Best to watch David Cameron's speech in full when it's upped to Youtube, there are a few salient points there. Also there will be a report published later which will detail everything in full. I'm sure the papers will condense it into articles throughout the day for publishing tomorrow.

kilik http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/on-demand-pm-s-statement

BIGDON
12th September '12, 03:40 PM
j6c3gvAoqnM

full report

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/index.html

MoneyMan
12th September '12, 03:56 PM
I swear to god I would kill Kelvin Maccunty. I don't even know anyone who was killed that day but it is deep touching the memorial outside the Gates, can't explain it but I guarantee all fans would feel something if they went there, it's not even a Liverpool thing contrary to what cunts try and make out.

Loads of Everton fans and random people were victims in this and it's not a case of Liverpool fans vs the world, just a simple case of humans trying to get answers and justice for their kids who died.

If you're a football fan, of any club, and don't seriously rate and respect Trevor Hicks, then I dunno what's wrong with you, really.

I just hope some fuckers go to prison now.

Jelly and Ice cream when thatcher dies!!!!!!

j09
12th September '12, 08:04 PM
https://twitpic.com/show/iphone/ats3fj

kilik
12th September '12, 08:06 PM
fuck the police, for 23 years they indicated that it was the fans fault.

no one will be fired. will the families finally get compensation? or have they already got it

Hij
12th September '12, 08:28 PM
I don't think they want money.

Despite 14 police officers getting 800k each for being traumatised (and using the defence that their superiors were inept as one of the over arching reasons) and the families getting just enough to cover funeral costs.

Skeptical
12th September '12, 08:42 PM
was watching this on the news earlier

sad stuff, the way they accused all those who died as drunks is a pisstake.

Hij
12th September '12, 10:16 PM
http://p.twimg.com/A2nwBeECcAEVbiT.png

http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/654915293.jpg

BIGDON
12th September '12, 10:19 PM
http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/654931552.jpg?key=10121286&Expires=1347485615&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=u95XIgsuJypUlEqrxhDuBxhDtsiUiUrOu2B~sVt2 oS0Q5ZNTD-ajNPiIeiggHerox7murcwqUpKVq6~fhEoyGA-6Nf-lRE0pKFvFIRPNZIRa8i2uo-TM1cWZMzTfoBHFPhoRa~NgSKPwGWB2iQkkE0fCZq6xdFIQNve6 SiT0zHA_

http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/654928246.jpg?key=8611073&Expires=1347485776&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=qfg3CVJEfTC0vqtggZ34VIFAqnyvdLTiM1w8dqRJ 92n5tZoeurzEIvoSXJYWgE4kOvQLZPOcUNgGYSXfHmc0tDkQ19 Vb9LZVI878okCgyPjlC2gl91ISLDaLaQSP~NMMyHSIBLkpjpVo Ueao-vg6fNVFS~R7~UuuXuwtSKBBSmE_

MoneyMan
12th September '12, 10:20 PM
I swear some Liverpool fans buy that shitrag as well smfh

Cops will blame the papers whilst the Scum try and deflect it all to the cops. Both of them need to burn in hell

Hij
12th September '12, 10:24 PM
I won't be buying the Sun so long as I have a hole in my arse.

If they had done it a few years back, they'd be on stronger ground.

Mirror and Independent doing exceptionally well and better than most expected.

j09
12th September '12, 10:25 PM
wills looking to start a family, good lad.

Hij
12th September '12, 10:27 PM
Anyone who wants to watch something apparently hard hitting watch Newsnight on BBC2 10:30pm


wills looking to start a family, good lad.
Exactly.

kilik
12th September '12, 10:29 PM
Anyone who wants to watch something apparently hard hitting watch Newsnight on BBC2 10:30pm


Exactly.

in for the first time in years

Hij
12th September '12, 11:10 PM
Interestingly it's not front page of the Telegraph :pinkface:

But good to see it front page of the Mail, Star, Independent, Times, Scotsman, Western Mail, I and even the Sun

Clive Eboue
12th September '12, 11:12 PM
What's with the hatred for The Sun? I assumed all they did was report what they had been told (again I'm a bit ignorant on the whole issue).

kilik
12th September '12, 11:14 PM
What's with the hatred for The Sun? I assumed all they did was report what they had been told (again I'm a bit ignorant on the whole issue).

they blamed the fans hard for years.

Eric Cantona
12th September '12, 11:23 PM
You can't even buy a Sun newspaper in Liverpool, i remember when i needed one and couldn't get one anywhere

Mr. Jefferies
12th September '12, 11:27 PM
What's with the hatred for The Sun? I assumed all they did was report what they had been told (again I'm a bit ignorant on the whole issue).

They originally printed an article entitled "The Truth" (hence The Real Truth today) which they accused scousers or pissing on dead fans, pickpocketing and attacking fans/police trying to resuscitate bodies.

http://www.soccer.mu/wp-content/uploads/Hillsborough_disaster_Sun.jpg

Hij
12th September '12, 11:30 PM
What's with the hatred for The Sun? I assumed all they did was report what they had been told (again I'm a bit ignorant on the whole issue).
They didn't retract it unlike other newspapers who held their hands up. They apologised with a 2.5 inch squared shit apology like 10 years later, and only just today, have they properly done the front page that Kenny Dalglish asked for a couple of days after they published the infamous one.

Also as an aside, and I agree with it, Lawtons' article regarding getting rid of the chanting of deaths I totally stand behind, whether it be Munich, Heysel, Hillsborough, Glasgow, Bradford, Adeybayor's incident, the Leeds fans in Turkey etc.

MoneyMan
12th September '12, 11:32 PM
You're never gonna get rid of it though sadly. The tribal nature of football means, for a few years at least until the working class are totally priced out of the game and it becomes a complete corporate gameshow, there will always be shit like sick chants.

Mr. Jefferies
12th September '12, 11:32 PM
jtzHVe2mEN0

Tottenham/Wolves at Hillsbrough 8 years before '89. Older United fans who stood on the Leppings Lane End have said it was a disaster waiting to happen, I've not read a massive amount but one of the things I've seen is that the ground didn't even have a safety license or words to that effect. It could have been any team.

Clive Eboue
12th September '12, 11:37 PM
Ah safe. Wouldn't expect anything better than that from The Sun smh.

MoneyMan you can't just attribute that sort of chanting to the working class, I've heard horrible shit chanted at football games from all manner of people. Myself included come to think of it.

MoneyMan
12th September '12, 11:45 PM
Ah safe. Wouldn't expect anything better than that from The Sun smh.

@MoneyMan (http://www.grimeforum.com/forum/member.php?u=8989) you can't just attribute that sort of chanting to the working class, I've heard horrible shit chanted at football games from all manner of people. Myself included come to think of it.

No but the sport and all of the matchday culture that comes with it (both positive & negative) ultimately started with working class northern blokes. I'm saying the tribal mentality of them, and therefore footy, means that imo we'll never stop disrespectful chanting because as soon as one side gets criticised for it they immediately jump on the defensive and say "but they do it as well!"

Obviously i'm generalising here. I try not to get wound up by any of it. You're right it is funny the way people suddenly switch into some football stereotype soon as they go through the turnstiles. I've been with my uncle (a priest!) at Old Firm games and he's been coming out with the worst ones lol. They talk about the 90 minute bigot in Scotland, and I think that's true. People can be total cunts at a game then go home and be friends with people they were abusing just earlier.

Clive Eboue
12th September '12, 11:50 PM
Hard to define where to draw the line I suppose lol

me and my boy almost got ejected from Anfield couple seasons back (when we drew 1-1 and Reina made that last minute howler) for chanting some disgusting stuff about Reina's family, feel a bit embarrassed by it now but I'm still claiming an assist on that goal. We terrorised him all game from right behind the goals lol

MoneyMan
12th September '12, 11:57 PM
I suppose the only way to stop it would be to take a zero tolerance approach. But that's just not practical. Cops would be arresting 500+ people at every game, and it's the same whether you go prem or league 2, infact the lower the division the worse the chanting I think lol.

I don't really care as I said I don't let it get to me. I don't wanna be a hypocrite, I could be a moany twat and phone the police everytime a utd fan says something I don't like, but I know if I get drunk and watch the match i'm gonna be saying all sorts so there's no point getting wound up (when you're sober that is lol)

Pirate
13th September '12, 12:35 AM
Thing with chants is though that if in this case Liverpool fans start a Munich chant, a Hillsborough one naturally starts up from United and vice versa.

Not going to lie, if I was at an Old Firm game and they started singing the Billy Boys or the Famine Song, I wouldn't hesitate to join in with a They Fell Down The Stairs or an Up The RA chant. Just the way crowds are.

Also I remember going to a newsagents in Liverpool which had a Don't Buy The Sun banner in the window but then stocked The Sun.

Hij
13th September '12, 12:42 AM
I've been to several Man United games, and I've heard pockets of individuals, usually scallies, pre or post match sing Munich songs. At the FA Cup semi pre drinks before, the banter was all good and then one lad tried to get a Munich one going, and 2-3 lads joined in but most people voted with their mouths and sang something else.

I've never been in a crowd where we've sung it as one (although this may well have happened) apart from as Pirate says as a reactionary thing where I will admit that as an 18 year old, I joined in with about 30% of the people in the main stand in a Munich chant, which on my part is shameful and I won't be doing it again (I also got told to shut the fuck up by someone in front of me).

The first reaction when you raise distasteful songs to any fan is always "well what about the other guys singing that song". So the best thing for us to do, and I hope after today that we can, is that we button it with the Munich shit, as we realise it's uncalled for and then at least our conscience is clean

Some Man U fans are considering taking a banner, which I imagine would be roundly applauded by the Kop and everyone else which could set the tone for better relations- we'll see. Would be great if the banter was all about the football again but who knows.

As someone who got actively involved in the campaign though, this is now a side and separate issue, and I'm genuinely pleased that today is happened and still a little stunned it has, even had a few texts of mates, who just thought I was a rambling idiot to say they wished they had listened to what I was saying sooner as well, which is nice. Night lads.


Also I remember going to a newsagents in Liverpool which had a Don't Buy The Sun banner in the window but then stocked The Sun.

There are still few sales in Liverpool, but still massively down on what they were.

Jstar
13th September '12, 04:13 AM
Few things I want to say

Good to see the truth has finally been brought out. Shocking reading the things that actually happened.
Margaret Thatcher is a vile human being and I hope she rots in hell. Its laughable to see people still call her one of the best PM's this country has ever had - Although come to think of it most of them have been pretty useless
It also does make you think - What else has the government and police covered up? I doubt it ends at Hillsbrough. Well actually they of course tried cover up the Mark Duggan shooting but that didnt work.

Tony Starks
13th September '12, 05:45 AM
Read a really good piece in The Mirror from one of their writers, a Liverpool fan that was there on the day. Finally have a proper grasp of what happened and how it went down. I'm actually disgusted, how Mackenzie and The Sun even attempted to paint the picture of the fans being to blame has me speechless

Tony Starks
13th September '12, 05:59 AM
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730 Brian Reade Article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-disaster-daily-mirror?newsfeed=true Guardian Blog - good links to past pieces in that as well

quality
13th September '12, 09:50 AM
Hij Tony Starks

The WSC frontpage and editorial post Hillsborough. Good read.

http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1152-september-2012/8991-post-hillsborough-disaster-editorial

Clive Eboue
13th September '12, 02:18 PM
Few things I want to say

Good to see the truth has finally been brought out. Shocking reading the things that actually happened.
Margaret Thatcher is a vile human being and I hope she rots in hell. Its laughable to see people still call her one of the best PM's this country has ever had - Although come to think of it most of them have been pretty useless
It also does make you think - What else has the government and police covered up? I doubt it ends at Hillsbrough. Well actually they of course tried cover up the Mark Duggan shooting but that didnt work.

Civil unrest was already high during Thatcher's reign, coming out and admitting police caused the deaths of all those fans could have started more riots potentially. It's disgusting of course but the government have to cover things up (some times they cover up when they don't need to anyway because they're slimy cunts) to keep society ticking over, objectively speaking I can see why they would try to withhold the truth.

I don't even want to think about what else has been swept under the rug by governments both past and present.

GrimmeySimmey
13th September '12, 02:22 PM
South Yorkshire police <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Can confirm. Fucking disgusting tbh.

Hij
13th September '12, 02:32 PM
Cheers for the posts.

quality I had seen the front page but never read the article, thanks for that.

Hij
13th September '12, 03:42 PM
page 383 of the report:

one private sector organisation, the Royal Sun
Alliance Insurance Company (which was the insurer for Sheffield Wednesday Football
Club in 1989) refused to waive its entitlement to privilege, thus denying the Panel access
to its material. Strenuous efforts were made to persuade the company to allow the Panel
confidential access to the relevant material, but it maintained its refusal. This is a matter of
considerable regret to the Panel

Josh
13th September '12, 04:40 PM
Sheffield Wednesday don't come out of this looking good at all imo. Willingly hosting a big game whilst knowingly not having a relevant safety certificate for the last 10 years.

And yes, as someone else just posted, South Yorkshire Police are the biggest joke in the UK.

Matt91
13th September '12, 06:15 PM
They do a good job on police interceptors Josh

quality
13th September '12, 08:50 PM
m8HnLTaofwQ

Pirate
13th September '12, 11:23 PM
Also, bear in mind the role the police played in Thatcher's time - she owed them BIG TIME.
All I'm saying is, a cop never goes to pen when a civilian dies.

Clive Eboue
13th September '12, 11:53 PM
Also, bear in mind the role the police played in Thatcher's time - she owed them BIG TIME.
All I'm saying is, a cop never goes to pen when a civilian dies.

They need a large amount of backing from their superiors though otherwise officers will start making the wrong decisions through fear of being sacked/imprisoned and could effectively do more harm overall.

All relative to individual scenarios though I suppose.

Pirate
13th September '12, 11:58 PM
They need a large amount of backing from their superiors though otherwise officers will start making the wrong decisions through fear of being sacked/imprisoned and could effectively do more harm overall.

All relative to individual scenarios though I suppose.

If they're following me and they've got a gun, I want the fear of hell in them tbh - people shouldn't be able to shoot first and then go "Oh shit, he was a Brazilian tourist, not a terrorist"

Clive Eboue
14th September '12, 12:03 AM
If they're following me and they've got a gun, I want the fear of hell in them tbh - people shouldn't be able to shoot first and then go "Oh shit, he was a Brazilian tourist, not a terrorist"

What if he's not a Brazilian tourist and after not shooting him the guy goes on to kill two officers and seven more civilians?

Like I said it's all relative.

Hij
14th September '12, 01:49 AM
m8HnLTaofwQ

I hope he fucking rots in hell the cunt.

This is the match where I made a banner for a lad whose brother had died (because he didn't have time to make one and I had a lot of free time) and he and I held it at the front of the Kop during the Truth Day in 2007 against Arsenal. I've still got it at home to be honest. You probably can't see mine, but my banner is one of the ones at the Kop end on the left (under the 'R' of "Truth"). The Arsenal fans were very respectful this day, the same way I have heard they were in 1989 before the match started by taking flowers to each end of the ground before the game where Michael Thomas scored. And if you don't believe me, ask Thierry Henry what he thinks of the Kop during this match.

Oh and fuck Mark Lawrenson about "get on with the football".

VrzH2LY6Fyo

I've never been so emotional at a game ever. I'm sure you will hear what it was like on the video if you watch it.

Clive Eboue
14th September '12, 02:13 AM
Hij I was in the Arsenal end that day, superb atmosphere.

Hij
14th September '12, 02:27 AM
Did you take on board what happened though? Or why it was sung? Because you have said a few times you don't know why it was said.

It's mental, its absolutely mental. I wasn't there, but I've done my bit since 16 years old, and to see all the front pages today after all that time, was emotional even for me.

MoneyMan
14th September '12, 02:33 AM
It really could have happened at any stadium as well, to any set of fans back then.

Footy fans and the working class in general were just treated like scum, herded around the place like cows and poked with sticks and shit.

If any of you have ever gone to an away match in Spain or Italy then that's how it was back here 30 years ago, but much worse because the authorities were so shit scared of hooliganism. Imo they actually caused a lot of the trouble by the way they acted.
Although fans (LFC and every other club) weren't total angels it is fair to say.

Clive Eboue
14th September '12, 02:35 AM
Did you take on board what happened though? Or why it was sung? Because you have said a few times you don't know why it was said.

It's mental, its absolutely mental. I wasn't there, but I've done my bit since 16 years old, and to see all the front pages today after all that time, was emotional even for me.

Na my Godfather explained to me but I was drunk and didn't really care at the time if I'm being honest.

I can understand why you would be emotional.

Hij
14th September '12, 02:36 AM
Tottenham fans felt the same in 1981. Nothing was done. Ambulances called in 1987, nothing done. Crushing in 1988, nothing done. SWFC were supposed to introduce turnstiles that went to each individual pen but didn't do it because of the "cost"

No safety certificate, no cordon around the ground, less police officers than in all the years before, a chief officer who had never policed a match before, the lies about opening the gate, all of it, everything. Completely scandalous. An attitude throughout the police of "save our skins, and blame the dirty scousers".

Callum mate, I can't believe we are talking about it on the grounds that most other normal people now understand and agree, it was only 6 weeks ago I was posting this stuff up on here and people probably thought I was some sort of dickhead. Like I said earlier, to all the people I've met, who lost people, who I've had been upset in my company. I hope they are sleeping well tonight. Now comes the justice.

I've followed Anne Williams throughout her campaign. I've followed Margaret Aspinall as well. I relate most to Trevor and Jennifer Hicks ( they came from London and their daughters, the same age gap as me and Nick both died)- but also because, my mum and dad are virtually the same age as their parents' and if me and Nick had been born earlier, we could have ended up going that match, and it could have been us lying in the gym at the Lepping's Lane end, with our Kodak pictures on the wall with over 90 others with our mother looking through them 'hoping' to find us, and 'wishing' to miss us.

When you think about it like that, it should never have happened and should never happen again. The likes of Kenny Dalglish who attended 70+ funerals being a "pariah" in the publics eye is fucking bullshit as well.

I might have spoken too much, or chatted a bit more shit than I should have but who cares. I've been banging on about this for over 12 months and yesterday I saw something I thought I'd never see.

Clive Eboue
14th September '12, 02:41 AM
I'm not going to lie at times I thought a lot of Liverpool fans were just being self righteous, admittedly ignorantly so on my behalf. Watched a couple of documentaries on it tonight and a lot of the footage was harrowing stuff.

El Asesino
14th September '12, 02:47 AM
great example of the tabloids being in the pocket of the government ttkk snm

Thatcher was a fucking witch my mum n dad are from sheff n lpool respectively ask them bout thatcher she put them through hell mums dad was a miner in sheff (ttkk) and dad grew up in the place that she was very close to leaving to it's own devices ie: removing police letting it fall into 'disrepair' she was a fucking evil bitch

video is powerful i remember that game, being younger and being raised in the south it's hard to feel as involved but this something that increases my hate for the system ten fold tbh its great justice is finally being carried out hopefully see some cut pensions and prosecutions

Hij
14th September '12, 02:56 AM
One hundred and sixty fucking four statements significantly altered.

Hij
18th September '12, 01:31 AM
wf15PAPnAik

Hij
20th September '12, 02:54 AM
Cover up by the following trusted members of society

"Sir" Irvine Patnick (MP Sheffield Hallam who didn't allow the MP from Hillsborough to meet with Thatcher who spread the lies hours after the tragedy)

Kevlin Mackenzie (Editor of the Sun, who ran the headline "The Truth" with the lies after it and "KOP YOBS ROBBED ME" - also a lie),

David Duckenfield (Chief of Police for the day, who ordered opening of the gate C and was in match commander room where CCTV tapes went missing. He also told all members of the police that day, not to write in their note books as the disaster handbook would cover it all).

Dr Stefan Popper (Coroner who ruled despite evidence to the contrary that everyone was dead by 3:15pm)
Norman Bettison (Chief of Police)

Paul Middup (Police Officer, put forward as the spokesperson who corroborated the damaging lies)

I've only mentioned 6 of the cunts. But there's also the guy from the FA who allowed the game to take place there. And not one of them stood up for justice. Cunts, the lot of them.


It's come out that several of them met in a pub, and worked out how to blame the fans. Wankers.

Hij
21st September '12, 05:40 AM
And to prove I'm not a liar. A lad whose brother died asked someone to make a banner, so I made one. Since that day after meeting him, and my mate I travelled with (who was there) explaining to me what happened, I finally understood properly. That's why I've been so keen, coz I made the banner just as some 19 year old dickhead doing it to help without understanding why, but after I spoke to everyone there, it was then I really understood especially after researching it, and then I tried to convince all you guys to sign petitions and stuff on here to help the cause. And if you did, then thanks, we got there in the end. :) #JFT96

http://imageshack.us/a/img440/2182/hij1.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A2m513eCYAAP7at.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A3SiMpRCQAEfJJH.jpg

VxFjTdP5gus

I'll have the other banner with me on Sunday. Justice for the 96, and all my friends who were there who I've met.

From 4:04 on the video onwards if you want to see it. If you support Arsenal you probably know about the day anyway.

MoneyMan
21st September '12, 11:50 AM
Hij what does the banner say? Can't see it all.

Was sick up at Celtic the other night, they dedicated YNWA to the 96 and had the Liverpool badge up on the big screen. Some woman had a massive LFC flag and LFC top on as well, was sick cos I don't know many stadiums where you can where the "wrong" top and no-one cares.

Mr. Jefferies
21st September '12, 11:58 AM
Was sick up at Celtic the other night, they dedicated YNWA to the 96 and had the Liverpool badge up on the big screen. Some woman had a massive LFC flag and LFC top on as well, was sick cos I don't know many stadiums where you can where the "wrong" top and no-one cares.

you'd get away with it at pretty much any premier league ground if you're an away fan in the home end, unless you're direct rivals and even then you can still get away with it (see below). don't celtic have a friendship with liverpool anyway?

QCAVuo1lvH8

what a pleasant eviction that is.

edit - remember the newcastle 1-1 first day of the season 08/09, martins scored for newcastle and fletcher equalised about 5 minutes later, that game when martins scored i was sat in the northeast quadrant and some geordie lept up a few rows down cheering the goal. nobody says anything.

MoneyMan
21st September '12, 12:04 PM
you'd get away with it at pretty much any premier league ground if you're an away fan in the home end, unless you're direct rivals and even then you can still get away with it (see below). don't celtic have a friendship with liverpool anyway?

QCAVuo1lvH8

what a pleasant eviction that is.

edit - remember the newcastle 1-1 first day of the season 08/09, martins scored for newcastle and fletcher equalised about 5 minutes later, that game when martins scored i was sat in the northeast quadrant and some geordie lept up a few rows down cheering the goal. nobody says anything.

Yeah obviously you get away fans in home ends all over the place but I mean seeing the shirt of a team that isn't even playing? Like that was Celtic vs Benfica and Liverpool tops were just randomly there lol.

Celtic have friendships with bare clubs though, them and Barca proper love each other so it'll be some family party type thing in the Champs League.

And nobody messes with Geordies do they :laugh:

Mr. Jefferies
21st September '12, 12:10 PM
Yeah obviously you get away fans in home ends all over the place but I mean seeing the shirt of a team that isn't even playing? Like that was Celtic vs Benfica and Liverpool tops were just randomly there lol.

Celtic have friendships with bare clubs though, them and Barca proper love each other so it'll be some family party type thing in the Champs League.

And nobody messes with Geordies do they :laugh:

that'd be even easier though as you're irrelevant on the day of the game, you're not the team they're playing.

NSF
21st September '12, 12:22 PM
you'd get away with it at pretty much any premier league ground if you're an away fan in the home end, unless you're direct rivals and even then you can still get away with it (see below). don't celtic have a friendship with liverpool anyway?

QCAVuo1lvH8

what a pleasant eviction that is.

edit - remember the newcastle 1-1 first day of the season 08/09, martins scored for newcastle and fletcher equalised about 5 minutes later, that game when martins scored i was sat in the northeast quadrant and some geordie lept up a few rows down cheering the goal. nobody says anything.lol that jobsworth cunt telling them to leave their seats, would've Judo thrown him down a few rows. I could understand if they were stood their antogonising people but they looked like they were just sat there watching the game.

Mirsaaly
26th April '16, 02:55 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg9oRTdWgAEoaEt.jpg:large

Hij
27th April '16, 03:48 AM
Mental how I read back on this thread and all the old regulars despite the banter signed the petition I asked them too. Genuinely I really appreciate it, and more than me, fuck me I'm just a randomer, my mates who were at the game that day appreciate it more. Thankfully I don't know anyone directly who died but I have become friends with a lot of people who did lose friends and family.

But after this success, especially on this forum of all forums, after Liverpool rising up and not taking no for an answer, do we not think we can do this in the South of England? After Mark Duggan and Jermaine Baker? I think we would all agree that anyone who has a gun on them deserves to be arrested and sentenced, but both of the cases of Duggan and Baker they are killed in the street like meat. Is that fair?

There has been no successful prosecution coming from an unlawful killing verdict.

Name: Acquitted police officers, No Prosecution, Trial Halted, Trial Collapsed, Guilty, Under Investigation

Jermaine Baker: Under Investigation
Mark Duggan - No Prosecution
Jimmy Mubenga - Acquitted
Azelle Rodney - Acquitted
Ian Tomlinson - Acquitted
Mikey Powell - Acquitted
Robin Goodenough - Acquitted
Harry Stanley - No Prosecution
Roger Sylvester - No Prosecution
Christopher Alder - Trial Collapsed
James Ashley - Trial Halted
Alton Manning - No Prosecution
Ibrahima Sey - No Prosecution
David Ewin - Acquitted
Shiji Lapite - No Prosecution
Richard O'Brien - Acquitted
Joy Gardner - Acquitted
Leon Patterson - No Prosecution
Omasase Lumumba - No Prosecution
Oliver Price - No Prosecution.




https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg9oRTdWgAEoaEt.jpg:large

Number 7, tell those conspiracy theorists to fuck the fuck off.

Hij
27th April '16, 04:13 AM
My thoughts are as follows, am on my phone at work and I don't have tapatalk so can't really read the thread atm.

Hillsborough is always one of those things I vaguely knew about, but it wasn't until the last one or two years I've actually started understanding what happened. That's a credit to the campaigners. Until then I, probably like most people, just knew the numbers of dead and the (soon to be dismissed) allegations of crowd trouble.

On the other hand, Liverpool FC's sentimentality has wound me up in the past. Added to the information available to me in the mainstream and hearsay etc, I probably didn't really understand the search for justice. Worth saying I never made jokes though etc, even with my limited understanding. Never really got mocking the dead.

Now I think I do understand the search for justice (as much as I can). It's not about mopery, or a sense of victimhood, or even people getting banged up for covering stuff up... It's about addressing the fundamental misconceptions people like me had about what happened - due to ignorance and being misled.

I can't imagine how it must be told that your loved one died as a result of their own actions, was urinated on, robbed etc. It's disgusting when I actually think about it, and time that the record was fundamentally set straight. And those 96, plus their families and survivors, viewed the way they are in Liverpool around the country - as innocents, victims of poor crowd control and a really horrible and self-effacing cover up afterwards.

I'm not sure what'll be done in terms of criminal action, and it must be horrible to have confirmed more could have been done to save lives, but if people like me are a bit more informed and lies addressed then that's something.

It's a shame we don't communicate anymore when you got it so right 4 years ago mate. Absolutely spot on mate.