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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nothing like anything View Post
    In my experience, Drum pattern is indeed a key indicator of genre/style,

    it is why on keyboards where you have a bank/library of 'styles', each one simply a different drum beat.
    It is not therefore the case that you have the same drum patterns in all music. Hip Hop patterns (apart from 80s electro hip-hop) derived largely from funk breakbeats so there is admittedly a lineage to before hip-hop with some of these rhythms but the reason you get these patterns at all in pop music nowadays is also because of the influence of hip-hop which rediscovered these lost breaks and sampled/recreated them and brought them out of obscurity.

    I agree that the 8 bar structure of instrumental grime is different to that of modern rap music which now uses the pop music structure of intro, verse, chorus etc. Saying that though a lot of vocalled grime tracks also use this pop music structure. The quadratic 8 bar switch up structure however isn't really unique to grime as it takes it's lead from generic dancehall music structure.

    I agree the basslines are not hip-hop influenced but any use of sampling ultimately derives from hip-hop (even if via jungle).

    In essence I believe that just as Jungle was speeded up hip-hop breaks grime is essentially speeded up rap (with house, garage and dancehall and even soca influences). Tempo in itself does not define genre. Hip-hop has had various waves/trends of tempo standards over the last 40 years.

    To my mind, I think the origin of speeding up hip-hop beats is twofold. Firstly, in the late 80s we only had limited sample time and thus had to speed up tracks to be able to sample the whole break. We would then slow it down again to hip-hop tempo but somewhere along the line started to enjoy the sound of them playing fast whilst being triggered up to create new rhythms.
    Secondly, and again this is anecdotal, I think another reason for speeding up comes from a practice typically found in school. Remembering my own experience as a drummer at school and now as a music teacher I still witness the phenomenon of students who having learned the drum beat to a current song (whether on the desk with pens, via beatbox or on an actual kit) then try to outdo each other or further show off by playing the same beat but faster.

    Looking at the second set of examples you posted, the characteristic use of brass stabs in tunes like Platoon and Blues was imo influenced by Ruff Ryder production style, tunes like "Ruff Ryder anthem", "Down Bottom", "What's My Name" etc..

    Jon E Cash War again uses the pattern from Busta's Dangerous - this isn't a beat pattern you find generically in pop or other styles other than rap by the way (unless you can demonstrate otherwise).

    The gunshot sample in Jammer's Set It Off is another hip-hop influence.. a very prevalent sample in 90s and 00s rap music. Furthermore "Set it Off" is the name of one of Big Daddy Kane's most famous tracks and is I believe how the phrase came to be popularised.

    Set it Off is also a good example of hip-hop's influence in Grime as it features terms of the ubiquitous use of tonic to minor 2nd vamping in grime, a harmonic basis that was very popular in 90s hip-hop but difficult to find anywhere else (eg, dancehall, pop, house, funk, soul etc)....

    I'm impressed to a certain extent but Platoon is not anything like any of them dmx tracks ....and neither is Wiley - Ice Rink, Ruff Sqwad - Pied Piper, DJ Eastwood - You Ain't Ready
    [/QUOTE] Originally Posted by Yardie Nah never that. And I'm always learning and willing to be skooled but this has not occurred itt. Soz [/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Xtra P View Post
    @[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] schooled you cuddy, you had no valid comebacks for him now go listen to T pains greatest hits and cool off.
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    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] your a legend mate

  2. #22
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    Good thread and great arguments in here.

    It has always bugged me why such a unique UK MC based sound such as grime has never (to my knowledge) drawn any parallels to what was happening in UK hip hop in the late 80’s early 90’s.

    So what are you lot calling UK rap, UK hip hop?
    @RISKoe, you say uk based and uk culture nothing came close to it and the rawness of it?

    where do you place groups such as Hijack, Gunshot, Hardnoise, Demon Boyz etc in relation to this comment?

    What these guys were doing in relation to production, attitude, rawness, lyrical flow was something that was distinctly English and was just as raw as what grime was doing only 10 years or so later, ironically coming out of some of same hoods grime was coming out of. Sure hip hop was its basis but they turned the American stuff on its head with faster production, aggression and something distinctly English, influenced heavily as you all know from Hardcore, later jungle, dancehall. Much the same as grime turned UKG on its head.

    In my view UK hip hop/britcore of that period had many parallels with what was going on in grime early 00’s and im not talking superficial tempo’s and aesthetics but the social aspect of it

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dab View Post
    where do you place groups such as Hijack, Gunshot, Hardnoise, Demon Boyz etc in relation to this comment?

    What these guys were doing in relation to production, attitude, rawness, lyrical flow was something that was distinctly English and was just as raw as what grime was doing only 10 years or so later
    Couldn't agree more, don't forget London Posse were doin this in '87, 15 years b4 grime
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    London Posse were killer. Yes one of the originators but in terms of “beat structure” were straight hip hop, not to different than anything out of the US at the time, lyrics though were straight up London street

    This one is one of my favs from the period



    production shat (for roughness and rawness) on most of what was going on in the US at the time and this tune (and many others) could only happen in the UK by means of what else was happening at the time. Don’t reckon too many can argue the tightness of the mc’s.

    sure this style was shortlived, turned to shit mid 90’s probably 3-4 years max of killer music and it never got back to those heights, crews broke up, sold out (same as grime aye..)

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    In Chicago some Techno producers in 1995 did something similar to Youngstar, JonECash , Alias tracks , these producers were Robert Armani , Lester Fitzpatrick , Mike Dearborn , DJ Skull , DJ Metal X , Akylah Bryant , Steve Poindexter


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  6. #26
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    Grime is localised HipHop by way of Jungle.

    Reggae/Rnb = HipHop>80's Uk HipHop(BritCore)>Jungle/Drum n Bass>Double timed US Hiphop (Timberland)>Grime

    Rnb = Disco>Electro Hop>US House>Rave>Garage/Dance etc.
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  7. #27
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    ima big fan of gangsta rap so grime emcees sounding like gangsta rappers is a hella of fing to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by church-road-somalian View Post
    ima big fan of gangsta rap so grime emcees sounding like gangsta rappers is a hella of fing to happen.
    idk i reckon there was gangsta grime almost from the start if you look at people like rsg's who were around early to mid 2000
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  9. #29
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    roadside g's are souding gully im a big fan of that tune ryder music by the rsg mandem.
    Quote Originally Posted by djricochet View Post
    idk i reckon there was gangsta grime almost from the start if you look at people like rsg's who were around early to mid 2000
    Last edited by church-road-somalian; 2nd July '17 at 05:31 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dab View Post
    Good thread and great arguments in here.

    It has always bugged me why such a unique UK MC based sound such as grime has never (to my knowledge) drawn any parallels to what was happening in UK hip hop in the late 80’s early 90’s.

    So what are you lot calling UK rap, UK hip hop?
    @RISKoe, you say uk based and uk culture nothing came close to it and the rawness of it?

    where do you place groups such as Hijack, Gunshot, Hardnoise, Demon Boyz etc in relation to this comment?

    What these guys were doing in relation to production, attitude, rawness, lyrical flow was something that was distinctly English and was just as raw as what grime was doing only 10 years or so later, ironically coming out of some of same hoods grime was coming out of. Sure hip hop was its basis but they turned the American stuff on its head with faster production, aggression and something distinctly English, influenced heavily as you all know from Hardcore, later jungle, dancehall. Much the same as grime turned UKG on its head.

    In my view UK hip hop/britcore of that period had many parallels with what was going on in grime early 00’s and im not talking superficial tempo’s and aesthetics but the social aspect of it

    In terms of what i'm saying when grime first started it was raw etc - the beef, the clashing, the war dubs the raves the whole culture, The Sound in general.........In comparison to what you just mentioned I am talking about the birth of an entirely new sound and scene - and you are basically just naming some old school UK Hip Hop crews that only make tracks from a genre which was already banging everywhere in america with clicks like Public Enemy, NWA, Boogie Down Producions etc, so i can't understand the point you're making, these name's you are saying are all just doing a sound which already existed in the states - where as the grime sound was fresh and original and most importantly, home grown. that's where I stand with that in answer to your question.
    Last edited by MrRiskoe; 3rd July '17 at 04:45 AM.
    [/QUOTE] Originally Posted by Yardie Nah never that. And I'm always learning and willing to be skooled but this has not occurred itt. Soz [/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Xtra P View Post
    @[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] schooled you cuddy, you had no valid comebacks for him now go listen to T pains greatest hits and cool off.
    Quote Originally Posted by diglett17 View Post
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] your a legend mate

  11. #31
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    conversations like this are mad because music influences span across the whole of music there isn't a definitive answer to say this came from there, sure certain elements are more influential then others but then those elements have their own influences as well so its an endless cycle

  12. #32
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    Americans did this, some guy on reddit hiphopheads tried to argue that giggs was a grime artist lol

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