Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 26
  1. #1
    ohjohnno is offline They Couldn't Test My Posting On A Level
    Join Date
    July 2015
    Posts
    300
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    24

    Default When did Grime, switch from being an offshoot of Garage to an offshoot of Rap?

    Everyone knows Grime came from Garage, but nowadays it's more comparable to Rap. It's quite a shift when you compare how different Garage is to Rap. What caused this? Is it right to maintain that it's a continuation of something when it is such a drastic change?

    please discuss
    Making Grimeforum Great Again

  2. #2
    Join Date
    September 2016
    Reppin
    Brighton
    Age
    24
    Posts
    261
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ohjohnno View Post
    Everyone knows Grime came from Garage, but nowadays it's more comparable to Rap. It's quite a shift when you compare how different Garage is to Rap. What caused this? Is it right to maintain that it's a continuation of something when it is such a drastic change?

    please discuss
    not sure how it's more comparable to rap now if im honest, there are more artists that might do both maybe but that hasn't fundamentally changed what grime is as a genre

  3. #3
    Join Date
    October 2009
    Reppin
    aberdeen
    Age
    39
    Posts
    824
    vCash
    1
    Rep Power
    34

    Default

    The likes of Oi in '01 was just grimier mc'ing on 140 bpm garage beats, when producers started makin 70 bpm beats it became something completely different to garage with deeper rap-like lyrical content.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

  4. #4
    Join Date
    February 2013
    Reppin
    NW 6
    Posts
    1,606
    vCash
    1
    Rep Power
    27

    Default

    garage ? i don't care about garage? listen to this it don't sound like garage? Who told you that I make garage? Willy Kat's got his own sound it's not garage
    [/QUOTE] Originally Posted by Yardie Nah never that. And I'm always learning and willing to be skooled but this has not occurred itt. Soz [/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Xtra P View Post
    @[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] schooled you cuddy, you had no valid comebacks for him now go listen to T pains greatest hits and cool off.
    Quote Originally Posted by diglett17 View Post
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] your a legend mate

  5. #5
    Join Date
    November 2010
    Posts
    122
    vCash
    1
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    never been a time when Grime wasn't heavily influenced by Rap....

    that includes production techniques, actual beat patterns (slow em down and you'll hear), bass lines, sound pallettes, lyrics, flow, dress style and specific slang.

    Furthermore Garage itself was heavily influenced by 90s RnB which by that time was ubiquitously using rap music production techniques and rappers.
    Before Hip Hop, During Hip Hop, Since Hip Hop...


  6. #6
    Dust Head1's Avatar
    Dust Head1 is offline Your Posts Sound Out Of Date And Expired
    I Check My CP, Got Bare Admires
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    4,422
    vCash
    1
    Rep Power
    118

    Default

    around the time Roadside g's were popping and of course the movement had a huge part in it

  7. #7
    Join Date
    February 2013
    Reppin
    NW 6
    Posts
    1,606
    vCash
    1
    Rep Power
    27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nothing like anything View Post
    never been a time when Grime wasn't heavily influenced by Rap....

    Furthermore Garage itself was heavily influenced by 90s RnB which by that time was ubiquitously using rap music production techniques and rappers.
    grime came from garage, garage came from house//there was a whole thing between grime and uk rap back in the day where there was a point in how it was not and never was anything to do with rap or hip hop.

    grime stems from dnb//ragga//bashment//and garage hence getting reloads and rewinds --- the only significance originally with hip hop was the fact people were spitting lyrics and maybe the fashion

    -- dizzee says his early beats were influenced from crunk etc, but still the eskimo sound and the original stuff like dj wire - believe me and all the early 8 bar stuff was nothing like the sound dizzee was making or like anything hip hop the only thing that resembles it imo is jay z - is that your chick, which again came out after all the original grimey garage sounding bits
    Last edited by MrRiskoe; 13th February '17 at 01:47 AM.
    [/QUOTE] Originally Posted by Yardie Nah never that. And I'm always learning and willing to be skooled but this has not occurred itt. Soz [/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Xtra P View Post
    @[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] schooled you cuddy, you had no valid comebacks for him now go listen to T pains greatest hits and cool off.
    Quote Originally Posted by diglett17 View Post
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] your a legend mate

  8. #8
    Join Date
    March 2016
    Posts
    1,484
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    From when Mcs like Kano sharky ghetts spat lyrical rap bars with grime flows. Since then

    Even from fix up look sharp. Which is a rap beat

  9. #9
    Join Date
    November 2010
    Posts
    122
    vCash
    1
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Many of the drum patterns of grimey Garage were essentially speeded up versions of Timbo and Neptunes beats and stuff off Busta's Turn It Up LP eg. "Dangerous", "Gimme Some More" "Put your hands where my eyes can see" etc. Not to mention the sped up vocal samples and just any use of sampling full stop.

    UK MC flows and lyrics have been influenced by US MCs at all points along with JA DJs of course, no-ones denying the Dancehall element.

    DJ's mixing and scratching, spinbacks etc all from Hip-Hop. sound FX, samples, all the slang (MCs, spit, bars, grimy, merc, beef, gat, body, feds, etc).

    Re the Jungle link, well that was sped up hip-hop breaks with ragga B-Lines n'all so the hip-hop influence carries over from that.

    Not to mention Versace, Armani, trainers, baseball caps, trainers, hoodies, tracksuits, Adidas, Nike and other style elements...
    Before Hip Hop, During Hip Hop, Since Hip Hop...


  10. #10
    Join Date
    February 2013
    Reppin
    NW 6
    Posts
    1,606
    vCash
    1
    Rep Power
    27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nothing like anything View Post
    Many of the drum patterns of grimey Garage were essentially speeded up versions of Timbo and Neptunes beats and stuff off Busta's Turn It Up LP eg. "Dangerous", "Gimme Some More" "Put your hands where my eyes can see" etc. Not to mention the sped up vocal samples and just any use of sampling full stop.

    UK MC flows and lyrics have been influenced by US MCs at all points along with JA DJs of course, no-ones denying the Dancehall element.


    DJ's mixing and scratching, spinbacks etc all from Hip-Hop. sound FX, samples, all the slang (MCs, spit, bars, grimy, merc, beef, gat, body, feds, etc).

    Re the Jungle link, well that was sped up hip-hop breaks with ragga B-Lines n'all so the hip-hop influence carries over from that.

    Not to mention Versace, Armani, trainers, baseball caps, trainers, hoodies, tracksuits, Adidas, Nike and other style elements...
    DJ Wire - Believe Me, Musical Mob - Pulse x, Wiley - Eskimo, DJ Narrows - Saved Soul, Wookie - Storm, More Fire Crew - Oi, Pay As You Go - Know We ...all early grime // late grimey garage, none of which sounds like anything busta rhymes, or neptunes.

    The only genres of music full stop that do reloads like a real reload in a rave is Dance Hall, Garage, Drum and Bass, and Grime. (uk and jamaica) There are no reloads or forwards in hip hop, not in the same sense.

    At the start of grime there was no one spitting like american rappers, there used to be a massive debait between uk hip hop rappers like euro gang etc sounding american, asher d etc sounding like there spitting american bars, iceberg slim,

    then you had Wiley spitting bars like 38 38, none of the uk grime mc's sounding anything like american rappers. You had the one line flow the yardie flow the craziness of ppl like d doube and flirta, then all the mc's in between flows like kano etc none of which sounded american or like hip hop at all.

    there may have been hip hop influences further down the line but originally there was nothing like grime, it was uk based and uk culture nothing came close to it and the rawness of it, the beats coming out of ruff sqwads camps and wileys productions there was nothing like it
    [/QUOTE] Originally Posted by Yardie Nah never that. And I'm always learning and willing to be skooled but this has not occurred itt. Soz [/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Xtra P View Post
    @[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] schooled you cuddy, you had no valid comebacks for him now go listen to T pains greatest hits and cool off.
    Quote Originally Posted by diglett17 View Post
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] your a legend mate

  11. #11
    Join Date
    November 2010
    Posts
    122
    vCash
    1
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    The influences were there from the start...rhythm/drum pattern is one of the defining characteristics of a style/genre.

    Pulse X drum beat has basically the same pattern as "Sucker MCs" - Run DMC or "Feelin It" - Ultramagnetic MCs (and a plethora of other 80s hip hop tracks either modelled on or sampled from breakbeats)

    DJ Wire's Believe Me has the same drum pattern as Busta Rhymes "Dangerous"

    Wookie Storm sounds very influenced by early 80s electro hip-hop, very similar bass line to "We Come To Rock"

    In terms of lyrics, On More Fire's Oi, Lethal quotes "Off the hook this year, getting mad money off the books this year" and Ozzie on about "thugged out mentality" and "getting jiggy" "rat a tat tat". On "Ride With Us", Mega uses the exact flow /rhyme patter as Q-Tip on Breathe and Stop...

    I can understand why youngers want to protect what they perceive as an original art form and I have nothing but respect for Grime but I was in my early 30s when it came out and had already been producing for a good 15 years so when we heard it first buss the influences were blatantly clear; perhaps if you were a teenager and impressionable at the time it might've sounded like an entirely new thing, I get that tho...
    Before Hip Hop, During Hip Hop, Since Hip Hop...


  12. #12
    Join Date
    March 2016
    Posts
    1,484
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Calm down @nothing like anything grime IS a original artform. Nothing new is original if u was to use your analogy.

    Plus. If u not from the ends and wasn't there when it went from the roads to the TV screens u will never understand grime and the young black males that we're making it

  13. #13
    Join Date
    November 2010
    Posts
    122
    vCash
    1
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    I lived in SE London between 95 and 05 on Walworth Rd so was not a million miles away at the birth (not that them sides really compare to the 70s and 80s in terms of poverty and desolation of course if that's what you're on about but still)

    Regardless though, none of that has any bearing on the evidence provided which shows hip-hop/raps influences in beats, rhymes and style...

    And just to be clear the only reason I bother to mention that ish is when young jedis try claim there was NO influence whatsoever!
    Last edited by nothing like anything; 14th February '17 at 02:34 PM.
    Before Hip Hop, During Hip Hop, Since Hip Hop...


  14. #14
    Join Date
    February 2017
    Age
    25
    Posts
    12
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    I preed this from time ago, about time you man start paying attention to me. stormzy knows

  15. #15
    Join Date
    February 2017
    Age
    47
    Posts
    32
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nothing like anything View Post
    I lived in SE London between 95 and 05 on Walworth Rd so was not a million miles away at the birth (not that them sides really compare to the 70s and 80s in terms of poverty and desolation of course if that's what you're on about but still)

    Regardless though, none of that has any bearing on the evidence provided which shows hip-hop/raps influences in beats, rhymes and style...

    And just to be clear the only reason I bother to mention that ish is when young jedis try claim there was NO influence whatsoever!
    You weren't there during the main years then we're you lol...have you even seen Stormzy in the flesh? Have you never done a dab in front of Big Ben? about you're from London lol

    only real grime heads talk to me pls smh

  16. #16
    Join Date
    February 2017
    Age
    25
    Posts
    12
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    about young jedis as well, man moving like obi wan kenobi out here, no real talent, i am the voice of the people. mans like yoda

  17. #17
    Join Date
    February 2017
    Age
    47
    Posts
    32
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Are you not entertained?! I'm like Gladiator #lol

  18. #18
    Join Date
    February 2017
    Age
    25
    Posts
    12
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    more like brokeback mountain bruv

  19. #19
    Join Date
    February 2013
    Reppin
    NW 6
    Posts
    1,606
    vCash
    1
    Rep Power
    27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nothing like anything View Post
    The influences were there from the start...rhythm/drum pattern is one of the defining characteristics of a style/genre.

    Pulse X drum beat has basically the same pattern as "Sucker MCs" - Run DMC or "Feelin It" - Ultramagnetic MCs (and a plethora of other 80s hip hop tracks either modelled on or sampled from breakbeats)

    DJ Wire's Believe Me has the same drum pattern as Busta Rhymes "Dangerous"

    Wookie Storm sounds very influenced by early 80s electro hip-hop, very similar bass line to "We Come To Rock"

    In terms of lyrics, On More Fire's Oi, Lethal quotes "Off the hook this year, getting mad money off the books this year" and Ozzie on about "thugged out mentality" and "getting jiggy" "rat a tat tat". On "Ride With Us", Mega uses the exact flow /rhyme patter as Q-Tip on Breathe and Stop...

    I can understand why youngers want to protect what they perceive as an original art form and I have nothing but respect for Grime but I was in my early 30s when it came out and had already been producing for a good 15 years so when we heard it first buss the influences were blatantly clear; perhaps if you were a teenager and impressionable at the time it might've sounded like an entirely new thing, I get that tho...
    Okay, I can see where you're coming from now with what you're saying, and i respect your opinion...It's also refreshing to have a debate // conversation to this extent on here with someone who has some good music knowledge without just turning into an argument.

    However I still disagree, using drum patterns as opposed to tempo//structure and actual sound i think is way to easy, you have these similar drum patterns in every genre of music, rock and roll songs even, pop songs, the same drum patters are used absolutely everywhere so you can't say that's is just hip hop based.

    The difference between the Run Dmc joint, and Pulse X is Pulse X is 8 bar, and it has the massive Wub, that's not hip hop its original, it's 8 bar grime and its 140 bpm.

    DJ Wire's - Believe me is also a complete different tempo bpm, and the bass etc through out is of no comparison to the Busta Rhymes track you mentioned - Which can I just add is already known that Masterstepz - Melody samples it.

    So Solid - Ride Wid us is pre Grime, a lot of so solid had American flow's. I already mentioned Asher D.....The words again, More Fire Crew - Oi again, is garage pre grime. The beat structure, tempo, bpm, and bassline is nothing to do with Hip Hop, the flows and the content again is nothing to do with hip hop, maybe one or two words american rappers use, but the actualy delivery is home grown.

    Tracks like Lewi White - Platoon, Jammer - Blues, Jon E Cash - War, Jammer - Set It Off

    This is original music, original home grown sound, no other genre is like this in terms of the sound, (not the drum pattern) you have the same drum pattern's in all music, theres a different between the drum pattern, and the actual sound.

    At the time i was already buying garage on vinyl for about 3 years, i was going Uptown Records, D Vinyl and Blackmarket I noticed the changing as i was getting the record to listen to in the shop around 2003 when i started noticing the difference and the change. Grime is Home Grown UK music in the bigger picture there is no other sound like it, bar a few influences here and there
    [/QUOTE] Originally Posted by Yardie Nah never that. And I'm always learning and willing to be skooled but this has not occurred itt. Soz [/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Xtra P View Post
    @[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] schooled you cuddy, you had no valid comebacks for him now go listen to T pains greatest hits and cool off.
    Quote Originally Posted by diglett17 View Post
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] your a legend mate

  20. #20
    Join Date
    November 2010
    Posts
    122
    vCash
    1
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    In my experience, Drum pattern is indeed a key indicator of genre/style,

    it is why on keyboards where you have a bank/library of 'styles', each one simply a different drum beat.
    It is not therefore the case that you have the same drum patterns in all music. Hip Hop patterns (apart from 80s electro hip-hop) derived largely from funk breakbeats so there is admittedly a lineage to before hip-hop with some of these rhythms but the reason you get these patterns at all in pop music nowadays is also because of the influence of hip-hop which rediscovered these lost breaks and sampled/recreated them and brought them out of obscurity.

    I agree that the 8 bar structure of instrumental grime is different to that of modern rap music which now uses the pop music structure of intro, verse, chorus etc. Saying that though a lot of vocalled grime tracks also use this pop music structure. The quadratic 8 bar switch up structure however isn't really unique to grime as it takes it's lead from generic dancehall music structure.

    I agree the basslines are not hip-hop influenced but any use of sampling ultimately derives from hip-hop (even if via jungle).

    In essence I believe that just as Jungle was speeded up hip-hop breaks grime is essentially speeded up rap (with house, garage and dancehall and even soca influences). Tempo in itself does not define genre. Hip-hop has had various waves/trends of tempo standards over the last 40 years.

    To my mind, I think the origin of speeding up hip-hop beats is twofold. Firstly, in the late 80s we only had limited sample time and thus had to speed up tracks to be able to sample the whole break. We would then slow it down again to hip-hop tempo but somewhere along the line started to enjoy the sound of them playing fast whilst being triggered up to create new rhythms.
    Secondly, and again this is anecdotal, I think another reason for speeding up comes from a practice typically found in school. Remembering my own experience as a drummer at school and now as a music teacher I still witness the phenomenon of students who having learned the drum beat to a current song (whether on the desk with pens, via beatbox or on an actual kit) then try to outdo each other or further show off by playing the same beat but faster.

    Looking at the second set of examples you posted, the characteristic use of brass stabs in tunes like Platoon and Blues was imo influenced by Ruff Ryder production style, tunes like "Ruff Ryder anthem", "Down Bottom", "What's My Name" etc..

    Jon E Cash War again uses the pattern from Busta's Dangerous - this isn't a beat pattern you find generically in pop or other styles other than rap by the way (unless you can demonstrate otherwise).

    The gunshot sample in Jammer's Set It Off is another hip-hop influence.. a very prevalent sample in 90s and 00s rap music. Furthermore "Set it Off" is the name of one of Big Daddy Kane's most famous tracks and is I believe how the phrase came to be popularised.

    Set it Off is also a good example of hip-hop's influence in Grime as it features terms of the ubiquitous use of tonic to minor 2nd vamping in grime, a harmonic basis that was very popular in 90s hip-hop but difficult to find anywhere else (eg, dancehall, pop, house, funk, soul etc)....
    Before Hip Hop, During Hip Hop, Since Hip Hop...


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •