Xavi: Mourinho will not go down in footballing history

[quality]

He built a legacy at Barca and achieved consistent success there but he did inherit the core of that squad.

For me, there isn't one player in that squad who you can't say Guardiola improved. That's some feat given the talent there. He doesn't 'need' to be successful at another club, but I'm sure he will be at some point. He picked them up from 07/08 (they were terrible), lost his first two games, the rest is history.

again missing the point. people have wet dreams over him BECAUSE he scores these hattricks against these shit teams, when placed against teams of similar tier, in this case chelsea, they struggle a win. which i was argueing against the point Xavi made about Barca being the "benchmark" which is total bullshit since they lost to a halfassed chelsea squad a few weeks ago

But in football, teams lose, that's what makes it interesting. They've won 2 out of 4 Champions Leagues, and 3 out of 4 La Ligas. Messi has finished as Champions League top scorer and La Liga top scorer numerous times. By definition, they are the benchmark - they're the most successful club over the past 4 or 5 years.

[Brisboy84]

I understand where he's coming from - people will look back on that Barca team like they look back at the dream team, or Sacchi's Milan, as the pinnacle of the game. Mourinho will go down as a great coach, but will never have that identifiable team.

Possibly. If he stays long enough and has consistent success with a team, then he will have that identifiable team (maybe 5 years+?).

I think he'll go down as a great manager. His achievements will dictate that.

[quality]

Possibly. If he stays long enough and has consistent success with a team, then he will have that identifiable team (maybe 5 years+?).

I think he'll go down as a great manager. His achievements will dictate that.

I agree, he'll go down as a great. But I don't think he'll ever stay with a team for a substantial amount of time. It's not his style, he's a win now fuck the future type of manager. Compared to, say, Ferguson who has the future embedded in everything he's done.

[Come Correct]

For me, there isn't one player in that squad who you can't say Guardiola improved. That's some feat given the talent there. He doesn't 'need' to be successful at another club, but I'm sure he will be at some point. He picked them up from 07/08 (they were terrible), lost his first two games, the rest is history.



But in football, teams lose, that's what makes it interesting. They've won 2 out of 4 Champions Leagues, and 3 out of 4 La Ligas. Messi has finished as Champions League top scorer and La Liga top scorer numerous times. By definition, they are the benchmark - they're the most successful club over the past 4 or 5 years.

it doesnt matter, they failed to beat chelsea in both legs(lose and draw) so they really cannot call themselves the benchmark. using that "teams lose" excuse would be fine of they lost one leg and won the second (and won on aggegate) but they failed twice. god knows why you are out to defend barca so badly.

[Scrappy123]

Mourinho>>>Pep

let's be real. I'll see how Pep does in his new job.

[iKlozzle]

For me, there isn't one player in that squad who you can't say Guardiola improved. That's some feat given the talent there. He doesn't 'need' to be successful at another club, but I'm sure he will be at some point. He picked them up from 07/08 (they were terrible), lost his first two games, the rest is history.

I agree, he improved them, he is a good manager... But he still had the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc at his disposal. Yes he did get the best out of them I agree with that. He also made some big calls like selling Ronaldinho and Eto'o etc. I'm not underestimating his achievements at Barca. But IMHO, until he proves himself at another club, he'll just go down as the manager of THAT amazing Barcelona squad

[Deagle]

Er not really. He took that idea and moved it on. The same way Ferguson took Spaletti's tactics and moved them on.

The idea that he's simply stuck to Cryuff's dream team 4-3-3 is wrong as well. Anyone who has watched Barca this year, and bits of last year, knows that. And Cryuff picked up total football from Rinus Michels etc. That's what good coaches do, improve other people's work.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog...iola-barcelona

The fact that before Guardiola took over, people were writing shit like this speaks volumes:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...-football.html

Cruyff invented Tiki Taka. Guardiola has barely created a philosophy of his own, in the same way that as you said, Ferguson borrowed Spalletti's idea. Improving an idea is not exactly revolutionising. What Guardiola has done it make a lot of gambles, and lots of times they have but there are also clear failures. Using Messi as a false nine in a strikerless formation is hardly revolutionising imo, it's been done before and it was a natural evolution.

[quality]

it doesnt matter, they failed to beat chelsea in both legs(lose and draw) so they really cannot call themselves the benchmark. using that "teams lose" excuse would be fine of they lost one leg and won the second (and won on aggegate) but they failed twice. god knows why you are out to defend barca so badly.

I'm not really out to "defend them so badly", I just find it amusing that someone can diminish their achievements because they've only won 2 in 4 Champions Leagues, not 3. Lionel Messi has a strike rate in the CL that is unmatched. Throw in that the spine of their squad was the spine of Spain's teams in 08 and 10, and its sustained success the modern game hasn't really seen.

The idea that they can only do it against Spanish sides with poor defenses, obviously compared to the rock solid defenses in England (this season in particular), is nuts.

I'm not a Barcelona devotee, Busquets is a fantastic player but a bitch, I don't like the way they surround the ref, at their absolute worst they aren't entertaining to watch (but which team is?) and turning on the sprinklers when Inter won was a shit thing to do , but it strikes me as strange that you want to split hairs over a failure to win two games. That's the nature of cup football, Chelsea rode their luck and fair play to them.

[Brisboy84]

Guardiola deserves all the credit he has for getting the best out of a talented bunch of players. Yeah people say it was easy because he had the talent already there, but he still had to get the best out of them - and he did that at a consistent basis (not as a one season wonder). Barcelona had previous teams that had a similar amount of talent (Luis Enrique, Rivaldo, Figo etc), but they didn't have a manager that consistently got the best out of them like Guardiola has done. They went through a period where they didn't even win a trophy from 1999-2005 i think.

[quality]

Cruyff invented Tiki Taka. Guardiola has barely created a philosophy of his own, in the same way that as you said, Ferguson borrowed Spalletti's idea. Improving an idea is not exactly revolutionising. What Guardiola has done it make a lot of gambles, and lots of times they have but there are also clear failures. Using Messi as a false nine in a strikerless formation is hardly revolutionising imo, it's been done before and it was a natural evolution.

But creating a philosophy of your own isn't necessarily a sign of greatness. Spaletti invented a formation, and Ferguson executed it more successfully. Ferguson will go down as a great manager. Guardiola's fingerprints are all over the last few years, far more well informed people than me have written about this btw.

I wouldn't say the movement of Messi was a natural evolution, as far back as the Man Utd final it was certainly nothing that British 'pundits' saw coming. The movement of Mascherano to CB was a masterstroke. Having faith in a supposedly injury prone Messi and Iniesta, Pedro, Pique and Busquets ahead of bigger name players left over from the Rijkaard era.

I'm not saying he's the best manager alive by any means, but its an impressive body of work. And I believe people will look back at Barca at their best with more fondness than any of Mourinho's counter attacking sides. That's just my opinion though.

[Come Correct]

I'm not really out to "defend them so badly", I just find it amusing that someone can diminish their achievements because they've only won 2 in 4 Champions Leagues, not 3. Lionel Messi has a strike rate in the CL that is unmatched. Throw in that the spine of their squad was the spine of Spain's teams in 08 and 10, and its sustained success the modern game hasn't really seen.

The idea that they can only do it against Spanish sides with poor defenses, obviously compared to the rock solid defenses in England (this season in particular), is nuts.

I'm not a Barcelona devotee, Busquets is a fantastic player but a bitch, I don't like the way they surround the ref, at their absolute worst they aren't entertaining to watch (but which team is?) and turning on the sprinklers when Inter won was a shit thing to do , but it strikes me as strange that you want to split hairs over a failure to win two games. That's the nature of cup football, Chelsea rode their luck and fair play to them.

its not about the loss and im not saying they arent good, im attacking the point of Xavi still thinking his squad is the "benchmark" of football. they got knocked out of the champions league and lost the La Liga, BOTH HAPPENED THIS SEASON. they have been surpassed and its time you face that fact.

[quality]

From Slaven Bilic the other day:

What has changed the most in your opinion?

It used to be quite a different game tactically – think those Chelsea v Liverpool clashes in the Champions League, those were chess games between Mourinho and Benítez. The goal justified the means. But then Pep Guardiola was crucial in changing that with his Barcelona team, so I have nothing but respect for him. He initiated a revolution in the way coaches look at football. It's true that Barcelona played attractive, attacking football before, and that tiki-taka comes from Cruyff and Rexach, but never before they played the way they did under Guardiola. And that has had a profound influence on other coaches, because everyone wants to emulate the best: most teams today try to play football, they strive to creation, not destruction. Even the Italians took part in that – both the national team and their clubs, with the exception of Inter and a few minor clubs in Serie A. That was unheard of before Guardiola.

its not about the loss and im not saying they arent good, im attacking the point of Xavi still thinking his squad is the "benchmark" of football. they got knocked out of the champions league and lost the La Liga, BOTH HAPPENED THIS SEASON. they have been surpassed and its time you face that fact.

Are Man Utd not still the benchmark of English football, even though City won the league?

With regards to the bold, read this:http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2.../sport.comment Genuinely one of my favourite pieces of football journalism ever.

[Milford Cubicle]

Most people will say mourinho is a better manager than pep.

Because he is IMO, on a shoestring or an unlimited budget, if he's your manager then you're gonna win things pretty much guaranteed. Guy knows how to park a bus and attack relentlessly, just look at how many Madrid have scored this year and how few they've conceded, good at spotting young talent too, all you have to do is look at Robben now. Not to say that Pep isn't also classy, just that the team he won most with was essentially Rijkaard's, he definitely knows how to use it better though but if you don't have success with a team like that then you should be shot.

[Come Correct]

From Slaven Bilic the other day:

What has changed the most in your opinion?

It used to be quite a different game tactically – think those Chelsea v Liverpool clashes in the Champions League, those were chess games between Mourinho and Benítez. The goal justified the means. But then Pep Guardiola was crucial in changing that with his Barcelona team, so I have nothing but respect for him. He initiated a revolution in the way coaches look at football. It's true that Barcelona played attractive, attacking football before, and that tiki-taka comes from Cruyff and Rexach, but never before they played the way they did under Guardiola. And that has had a profound influence on other coaches, because everyone wants to emulate the best: most teams today try to play football, they strive to creation, not destruction. Even the Italians took part in that – both the national team and their clubs, with the exception of Inter and a few minor clubs in Serie A. That was unheard of before Guardiola.



Are Man Utd not still the benchmark of English football, even though City won the league?

With regards to the bold, read this:http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2.../sport.comment Genuinely one of my favourite pieces of football journalism ever.

we lost on goal difference, they lost by nine points...big difference.

[quality]

we lost on goal difference, they lost by nine points...big difference.

Essentially after El Clasico the league was over, so they stopped playing. No one has retained the CL in 22 years (so since the competition was fundamentally changed), no one has won La Liga 4 times in a row in 20 years (neither do people win the Premiership 4 times in a row these days). Over Guardiola's time, they've been fantastically successful in modern football. 2 CL wins, 2 semi finals. 3 La Liga wins, 1 runners up. Speaks for itself, and the team is young enough to go again.

Basically... find a team that can match that in the past twenty years.

[Tony Starks]

Barca player comes out with arrogant classless comment. Suprised

Mourinho>>>>

[Zoffie]

I understand where he's coming from - people will look back on that Barca team like they look back at the dream team, or Sacchi's Milan, as the pinnacle of the game. Mourinho will go down as a great coach, but will never have that identifiable team.

Haha.. but, don't you understand what you've just expressed.

People will think back to Guardiola's Barcelona team, just like they'd look back to Wenger's Invincibles, Milan's Invincibles, Ancelotti's Diamond.. Ajax 90's team... This is when they think about the greatest teams in history.

When they think about the greatest manager, it'll just be... Mourinho, not a team associated with his name. Just Mourinho.. and that says so much.

[quality]

Haha.. but, don't you understand what you've just expressed.

People will think back to Guardiola's Barcelona team, just like they'd look back to Wenger's Invincibles, Milan's Invincibles, Ancelotti's Diamond.. Ajax 90's team... This is when they think about the greatest teams in history.

When they think about the greatest manager, it'll just be... Mourinho.

I realised what I expressed. I've said Mourinho will go down as a great manager, but I'm not sure if history (outside of the English media) will remember him particularly fondly. There's no fucking with his achievements at all.

@Come Correct is Mourinho a shit manager because Liverpool knocked him out in 07 at the semis? Or his first year at Inter? Or all the time he's been at Real in the CL? Please confirm.

[Zoffie]

I realised what I expressed. I've said Mourinho will go down as a great manager, but I'm not sure if history (outside of the English media) will remember him particularly fondly. There's no fucking with his achievements at all.

Mourinho's got more international acclaim than any other manager imo. What I was suggesting is that you specifically explained where Xavi is wrong, people will remember Guardiola's team, but, remember Mourinho as a manager. So going down in history, Mourinho will be more etched in history that Guardiola.

In fact it was Guardiola who said that Mourinho is the greatest manager ever.

If Xavi's message is, winning playing beautiful football is much better, that's a no-brainer, is it of any surprise to any body that despite United having the Premier League in a chokehold since it's inception that Arsenal was voted as having the best team.
It's not a surprise because of the football they played & so Wenger get's the most credit for creating that team, but, history won't remember him as the greatest manager.

He's right that Chelsea's UCL win is much of a muchness. Porto & Liverpool have won in recent years. Barcelona have been the best team in the world & will still set the standards, even without Pep & that says a lot as well.

Any team loses Mourinho and they'd be significantly effected by losing his skillset.

[quality]

Mourinho's got more international acclaim than any other manager imo.

I'm distinguishing between acclaim and being remembered fondly. It's only the press in England who like him, and wet their knickers any time he mentions he might return.

It won't mean much to him at all if people don't like him. I just get the feeling that history will remember how much of a dick he was. I understand where Xavi is coming from, I don't necessarily agree 100%.