Drenthe on Messi

**Alter E-ghost** · 10th May '12, 01:18 PM

@Hij if a child of a vicious racist only sees black people being called nigga/coon/ generally inferior and he grows up thinking this and his community are in a similar mindset does that excuse him or them? If he then goes to another city, with a totally different opinion of black people (they are integrated into the community), still with this same attitude towards them and acts as such should he not be stopped? I'm playing the devils advocate but not even 100 years ago the general position, cultural at that, when it came to black people, was that they were inferior. If it weren't for some people thinking otherwise and them fighting for equality the corrections that needed to be made that centred on the respect that should be given to other races may not have come. This includes references to and about black people and general interaction which all, fundamentally, comes from said respect.

**Hij** · 10th May '12, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Alter E-ghost

@Hij if a child of a vicious racist only sees black people being called nigga/coon

But it's completely different. Negra, Negrito, Negro are widely used terms for celebrities in the South America, they can be used to reference a white person. Referencing someone by their appearance over here has a negative stigma because of our history. I'd never see you on road and say "you alright black" as it is simply unacceptable in our country. But I do certainly greet some mates as "Lanky", "Ginger", or have opposite nicknames for people etc. Some of the South America's don't have that stigma around race, and for them in some ways it is the same as me calling my mate 'ginger'- I know that sounds bad, and perhaps we can call them a "backward society" that are behind us, but from what I have read that is what it is like in places over there.

Also let it be clear that we are definitely not talking about terms such as "******" or "Coon" which I don't think I have ever argued as acceptable under any circumstances, as there is pretty much no doubt over them.

still with this same attitude towards them and acts as such should he not be stopped? I'm playing the devils advocate

Of course, but if it appears that there is a general problem with this and it seems to me to be absolutely a cultural problem with the sheer amount of South American's now also accused, that the issue should be with education, and as Diarra told Heinze and Higuain, the onus should now not be on players but be on clubs to make sure that any players who speak in this way are educated that it is simply not acceptable in a European society or at a European football club. Perhaps these anti racism bodies who are very quick to go to the media and complain about racism could do something constructive and perhaps have education as a priority.

If it weren't for some people thinking otherwise and them fighting for equality the corrections that needed to be made that centred on the respect that should be given to other races may not have come. This includes references to and about black people and general interaction which all, fundamentally, comes from said respect.

I do agree with this. But we also need to look at ourselves, and our own cultures. Until we get rid of stereotypes based upon the colour of people's skin, then these problems will arise.

Originally Posted by Kartel

proper english article

Tbh it doesn't matter if it is a common word, it's the context that Messi and Suarez both used it. Knowing that the other person would be pissed off.

The photo is pretty misleading as we don't know if it was used there and clearly Abidal has been upended by probably a nasty challenge. I don't know if Messi and Suarez meant it with any venom or not - perhaps they have used this cultural difference to hide behind blatant racism, but we don't know that, it does seem to be something that is used regularly.

**Papinades_** · 10th May '12, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by JamieQpr

Stupid white cunt, shit footballer aswell.

.

**nortside** · 10th May '12, 10:01 PM

Boi if messi did say this why drenthe wait almost 2 years to complain????

**Alter E-ghost** · 11th May '12, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Hij

But it's completely different. Negra, Negrito, Negro are widely used terms for celebrities in the South America, they can be used to reference a white person. Referencing someone by their appearance over here has a negative stigma because of our history. I'd never see you on road and say "you alright black" as it is simply unacceptable in our country. But I do certainly greet some mates as "Lanky", "Ginger", or have opposite nicknames for people etc. Some of the South America's don't have that stigma around race, and for them in some ways it is the same as me calling my mate 'ginger'- I know that sounds bad, and perhaps we can call them a "backward society" that are behind us, but from what I have read that is what it is like in places over there.

Also let it be clear that we are definitely not talking about terms such as "******" or "Coon" which I don't think I have ever argued as acceptable under any circumstances, as there is pretty much no doubt over them.

Of course, but if it appears that there is a general problem with this and it seems to me to be absolutely a cultural problem with the sheer amount of South American's now also accused, that the issue should be with education, and as Diarra told Heinze and Higuain, the onus should now not be on players but be on clubs to make sure that any players who speak in this way are educated that it is simply not acceptable in a European society or at a European football club. Perhaps these anti racism bodies who are very quick to go to the media and complain about racism could do something constructive and perhaps have education as a priority.

I do agree with this. But we also need to look at ourselves, and our own cultures. Until we get rid of stereotypes based upon the colour of people's skin, then these problems will arise.

The photo is pretty misleading as we don't know if it was used there and clearly Abidal has been upended by probably a nasty challenge. I don't know if Messi and Suarez meant it with any venom or not - perhaps they have used this cultural difference to hide behind blatant racism, but we don't know that, it does seem to be something that is used regularly.

So do you think it's ok because it's part of of their culture in their homeland?

**Hij** · 11th May '12, 01:09 AM

It really isn't a question for me to decide whether it is ok or not, so I wouldn't want to be drawn on that. But I'll answer your question with a different answer. Is it ok for me, to speak like that? No, because I have been brought up in a society where there is a negative stigma over referring to people of race by names such as that and I wouldn't and don't feel comfortable referring to anyone like that and don't.

I think I've said already that there needs to be an initiative from Racism bodies (like Kick It Out) who seemingly only ever release statements to condemn racism (I've never really seen them in the press doing anything else other than perhaps have an Anti Racism day where players come out wearing Kick it Out shirts) to educate people who come over to Europe - each and every player who comes over to be made aware that it is unacceptable here and as such there will be no excuses if that sort of comment is made on the football field once they have been informed- because clearly they do not live by whatever our standards are, in their own countries- so it is a difficult one- are our ways the only right and proper ways?. Equally, perhaps there are people in the South America's who think "Who are the English to tell us how we can address each other" - I mean, to play devils advocate, I haven't heard since the furore started anyone from the South America's come out and say something along the lines of "it is a massive problem, I'm glad the black players in Europe are highlighting it". Seemingly no-one has a problem with the culture and the way of expression but clearly when that language is brought over the seas European players find it offensive - and if that's the case it does need to be stamped/kicked out I agree. And while QC highlighted some racism problems in the past over there, they are nothing like England's where I imagine there is still a large guilt complex on behalf of older whites.

There is also the issue of the word in Spanish having more than one meaning, in comparison to the English word which you are thinking more of probably. Anyway, I'll leave it there, I really would rather not get into this again and certainly don't mean to cause any offence to you mate. For the record, Messi has denied saying it.